Need Help With ID- Dinos?

[DesertReefBoy]

I just got home and can't find the pictures under the scope

I have a 90 DT w/30 gal sump
DT is a SPS dominate tank with a bunch of fish and a few LPS.
100 lbs LR
I run AI Hydras LEDs
Have a over sized skimmer
Large refugium with a million pods

I bought my tank from a buddy who had it set up for a little over a year. He ended up losing a black tang and a clown fish (his first SW fish ever). He let his tank go for 3-4 months then told me I could have it for $200. I was going to buy new but I let my wife talk me into the bargain deal. Here is a pic of the tank when I bought it.




Pretty nice right hahahah

I tore it down and moved it to my house. A few days later I started my series of water changes. My first water change I took all the rock out and scrubbed it with a potato scrubber. We got rid of all the sand and added new sand. Scraped all the glass and deep cleaned the sump and equipment. I let the tank sit for 30 days expecting a mini cycle. It came and passed after then I was expecting.

I continued to do large water changes every couple of days to get the nitrates and phosphates down. The nitrates were over 100 And Po4 was over 3. After a month everything started to balance out and things were looking good. I slowly got rid of his fish and added fish I wanted. I continued doing a aggressive water change schedule until the nitrates were under 5 and Po4 under 0.25.

I continued to add fish probably quicker then I should have but I couldn't resist.

Here is what it looked like then.



Not the best pic but the only one I have.

Everything was going real good for about 5 months and I thought I had the hang of this reef thing. Then. I started to notice algae. I was real careful to not overfeed and use RODI water. I was using good salt but it kept coming. The dinos were here...

I tried sucking them out, water changes, filter socks, sucking them out and filtering them with filter floss then adding the water back to the tank. Nothing worked. I then found the huge thread on here that @twilliard started and was hopeful. It didn't seem to really solve anything but got me really thinking. I did the shake test and it confirmed dinos. I took a sample to the lab at school and looked like dinos. I tried the metroprolol and followed their plans but it didn't work. I tried increasing my nutrients as mentioned above and it didnt help. I left on vacation to Seattle for 10 days and let my buddy look after my tank. He is a way more seasoned saltwater vet then me. I just had him feed my fish no other maintenance. When I got home the tank was SO overrun with dino. It overrun a bunch of my SPS and I felt defeated.

I talked to a LFS in Seattle when visiting and the owner was a marine biologist. I told him about my dinoflagellates and he told me this is what I need to do.

1.) double check my TDS in my RODI
2.) double my clean up crew
3.) aggressive water changes 2-3 times a week 25 gallons.
4.) buy a reactor and immediately start running Rowaphos.

I checked my TDS and the water was pretty bad. I was buying from a LFS and the water read over 100 TDS. I bought a 6 stage RODI and my reading is 0 now.

I added 30 more hermits

Started aggressive water changes and sucked out the dino.

I bought a reactor and started running rowaphos.

The next day I noticed the dino start to change colors and not grow as fast. I continued to swap out the rowaphos every couple days and am still running it today.

Currently my No3 is 10 and Po4 is 0.04. AND my Dinos are gone. Tank is looking real good and everything seems stable.

Long story but know you have some bed time reading to put you to sleep .

 

[TechnicalFisher]

Started KNO3 dosing yesterday, 10ml of a solution of 1 cup RODI and 1tbs Spectracide. My nitrate had basically bottomed out and the dose brought it up to 1.5 or so. Will do a manual removal of all Chryso tonight along with an second dose after testing. Cyano continues to expand so I'm hopeful that my dosing doesn't make it any worse while I'm trying to fight the chryso.

Otherwise excited to be taking action In this and keeping fingers crossed it works!

 

[TechnicalFisher]

Day 2- no visible change in corals after dosing KNO3. Nitrates tested at 1.5 and dosed another 10 ml. I'm looking to bring them between 2 and 4 and see how tank reacts. Did manual cleaning of chryso and it seemed to really blow off the rocks very easily. Perhaps some die off? Will get a better look at things tomorrow, was doing this under actinics.

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks for posting all of that! Great recap!!

I checked my TDS and the water was pretty bad. I was buying from a LFS and the water read over 100 TDS. I bought a 6 stage RODI and my reading is 0 now.

I added 30 more hermits

Started aggressive water changes and sucked out the dino.

I bought a reactor and started running rowaphos.

The next day I noticed the dino start to change colors and not grow as fast. I continued to swap out the rowaphos every couple days and am still running it today.

This is more like a recipe for diatoms...which often co-mingle with dino's. I know you did the shake test and it passed and I believe you when you say you saw dino's under the scope. Just wonder now "what else?"

High TDS usually implies an excess of silicates going into the tank more-so than phosphates or other nutrients, but that could depend on your local supply. Diatom blooms are a pretty common occurrence for folks when they forget to change their RODI filters.

Also, RowaPhos (any GFO) when left in that short of a time frame is supposed to be mostly removing silicates. (First 24 hours the way it was explained to me.) Phosphate binding is supposed to take longer than that.

I hope you stumble on those microscope photos some time!

 

[TechnicalFisher]

Day 3 - NO3 came up rapidly to 4-5ppm with last night's dose. My Superman monti is as blue as its ever been. Put in filter sock and did another manual removal of chryso this morning and again in afternoon to baste off rocks. It's coming off but still appears to be growing. Interestingly only large patch of cyano has disappeared.

@mcarroll- with NO3 up to 4 or 5 I'm thinking of holding off on tonight's dose and checking first think in am before dosing any more. Is this the right plan?

 

[mcarroll]

Interestingly only large patch of cyano has disappeared.

Signs of change like this are pretty much always an indication you're on the right track. (A lot of times it's the ARRIVAL of cyano that we welcome, but however it goes!!! )

with NO3 up to 4 or 5 I'm thinking of holding off on tonight's dose

There's no completely correct answer since really high N concentrations clearly aren't a problem per se.

I think 5-10 ppm is a good minimum range, so there's room to keep dosing.

Hold back if you hit 10 ppm since I don't know of any advantage to going higher (OR if P swings too low). Then resume if NO3 drops to 5 or lower again.

 

[jwshiver]

My Chrysophytes has been replaced with a horrendous outbreak of Dino. My guess is it was there all along but was being out-competed by the chryso. It has come on fast and with a vengeance. The last few days have been bad. It is on the rock, glass and sand. Yesterday afternoon I dug out my Emperor Aquatics 25 watt UV sterilizer and have it running in the display instead of the sump. I scrubbed a patch of rock after getting the the UV running to see if the dino would come back in that area. When I got home from work today the scrubbed areas where still clean. I scrubbed about half the rock this afternoon and when the water cleared I changed out the filter socks. Tomorrow I want to see if there is any affect on the rock that I did not clean. One change I noticed today after starting the UV is my skimmate has gone from tea color to coffee color and the smell is worse than normal.
Yesterday my PO4 was 0.08 and today 0.09 while dosing 10 ml in the morning and 10 ml in the afternoon of NeoPhos each day. My NO3 has been holding steady at 5. The coral colors and PE are noticeably improved with the higher PO4.
Should I do a water change at this point? Any other recommendations?

 

[mcarroll]

My Chrysophytes has been replaced with a horrendous outbreak of Dino.

It took me a while to figure out what I had blooming back then.....thought diatoms for a while, thought dino's for a while.....can't remember what keyed me in on chrysophytes finally because I remember there was practically no info on them or even photos of them when I looked at the time.

I also didn't have a microscope, so I was left guessing in the first place – not a good position to be in if you have a choice.

Got a scope?

The one I got to start with only costs $12 including shipping:
Selecting a microscope

 

[mcarroll]

Yesterday my PO4 was 0.08 and today 0.09 while dosing 10 ml in the morning and 10 ml in the afternoon of NeoPhos each day. My NO3 has been holding steady at 5. The coral colors and PE are noticeably improved with the higher PO4.
Should I do a water change at this point? Any other recommendations?

Sounds like good progress.....but that's a strange phase to go through though.

As long as corals look well and you have no signs of toxins (watch pods and snails.....lethargy might be the first symptom....use carbon if you see any symptoms...or start now with a small quantity "just in case") then I'd say you're on the right track – just keep it up.

A water change is a good idea.....if you think some "extra" is needed then blast your rocks and sand with a powerhead first....maybe even do some intensive old-school gravel vacuuming. Doing this after lights-out would be ideal.

 

[jwshiver]

It took me a while to figure out what I had blooming back then.....thought diatoms for a while, thought dino's for a while.....can't remember what keyed me in on chrysophytes finally because I remember there was practically no info on them or even photos of them when I looked at the time.

I also didn't have a microscope, so I was left guessing in the first place – not a good position to be in if you have a choice.

Got a scope?

The one I got to start with only costs $12 including shipping:
Selecting a microscope

I do have a scope. At first I didn't know what I was looking at until I came across some threads about chryso. I haven't scoped the current problem because it seems to have all of the hallmarks of dino.

 

[jwshiver]

Sounds like good progress.....but that's a strange phase to go through though.

As long as corals look well and you have no signs of toxins (watch pods and snails.....lethargy might be the first symptom....use carbon if you see any symptoms...or start now with a small quantity "just in case") then I'd say you're on the right track – just keep it up.

A water change is a good idea.....if you think some "extra" is needed then blast your rocks and sand with a powerhead first....maybe even do some intensive old-school gravel vacuuming. Doing this after lights-out would be ideal.

I am very happy with the improved colors. I have one that I wrote off as a lost cause. Tonight the polyp eyes where glowing under the blue LEDs. Very excited about that. My trochus snails are definitely not happy. I seem to be missing some. Hopefully they are just hiding out weathering the storm. All of the corals have a negative reaction by retracting their polyps and LPS deflate when I scrub the rocks, and the tank/sump has a stench to it after scrubbing the rocks. They open back up when the water column clears out. I changed my carbon last Sunday and will change it again tomorrow or Saturday morning as well as a water change.

 

[mcarroll]

Sounds good! FYI, the idea is just to keep the carbon very fresh, not so much to run very large amounts. Carbon is quite effective in this role, so it shouldn't take a lot if you're there to change it out.

I do think the stink is related to toxin release, and I don't think the missing snails have just gone on vacation.....I wouldn't look for them to come back. (Hopefully I'm wrong on the snail part!!!)

How long ago did you notice the snails being "off" btw?

And when the lights are on, let us know what the pod situation is like. Present/not present? Active/lethargic?

 

[TechnicalFisher]

Day 5 update- tank is starting to look much better! Cyano continued to die off over last couple days and I did a 20% WC yesterday and siphoned off most of what remained on the sand. Chryso hasn't come back much in areas I have manually cleaned and appears to be starting to generally retreat.

Still need to get my dosage of KNO3 dialed in better, my nitrate level has ranged between 4 and 10ppm with daily doses between 5ml and 10ml. Tank looks really happy closer to 10ppm so I'm trying to stabilize it there.

 

[mcarroll]

It's ok to target a little over 10ppm so that it's still not under 10ppm when you came back to dose again 24 hours later. Just don't go crazy with it – small changes.

 

[TechnicalFisher]

Day 9 update- I'm still dosing KNO3 at 10ml/day which is keeping the tank just over 10ppm. The chryso that I removed manually has returned in some places more than others but seems to be slowing generally. Interestingly, the cyano, which had become pretty prevalent before I started dosing, is almost completely gone.

The few corals I've got in the tank seem to continue to respond positively and I've actually started to get some encrusting from my acropora, which is a first for the tank. So, moving the right direction.

The more I read, the more I think that some of the problems I'm seeing, from strange algae like chryso to slow/no growth is all related to having used dry rock. It seems like it adds a good 6 months to the tank break in process and significantly increases the amount of time it takes to get a stable system. I liked the idea of not taking materials from the reefs but didn't anticipate the added hassles!

 

[Cscultho]

I just got home and can't find the pictures under the scope

I have a 90 DT w/30 gal sump
DT is a SPS dominate tank with a bunch of fish and a few LPS.
100 lbs LR
I run AI Hydras LEDs
Have a over sized skimmer
Large refugium with a million pods

I bought my tank from a buddy who had it set up for a little over a year. He ended up losing a black tang and a clown fish (his first SW fish ever). He let his tank go for 3-4 months then told me I could have it for $200. I was going to buy new but I let my wife talk me into the bargain deal. Here is a pic of the tank when I bought it.




Pretty nice right hahahah

I tore it down and moved it to my house. A few days later I started my series of water changes. My first water change I took all the rock out and scrubbed it with a potato scrubber. We got rid of all the sand and added new sand. Scraped all the glass and deep cleaned the sump and equipment. I let the tank sit for 30 days expecting a mini cycle. It came and passed after then I was expecting.

I continued to do large water changes every couple of days to get the nitrates and phosphates down. The nitrates were over 100 And Po4 was over 3. After a month everything started to balance out and things were looking good. I slowly got rid of his fish and added fish I wanted. I continued doing a aggressive water change schedule until the nitrates were under 5 and Po4 under 0.25.

I continued to add fish probably quicker then I should have but I couldn't resist.

Here is what it looked like then.



Not the best pic but the only one I have.

Everything was going real good for about 5 months and I thought I had the hang of this reef thing. Then. I started to notice algae. I was real careful to not overfeed and use RODI water. I was using good salt but it kept coming. The dinos were here...

I tried sucking them out, water changes, filter socks, sucking them out and filtering them with filter floss then adding the water back to the tank. Nothing worked. I then found the huge thread on here that @twilliard started and was hopeful. It didn't seem to really solve anything but got me really thinking. I did the shake test and it confirmed dinos. I took a sample to the lab at school and looked like dinos. I tried the metroprolol and followed their plans but it didn't work. I tried increasing my nutrients as mentioned above and it didnt help. I left on vacation to Seattle for 10 days and let my buddy look after my tank. He is a way more seasoned saltwater vet then me. I just had him feed my fish no other maintenance. When I got home the tank was SO overrun with dino. It overrun a bunch of my SPS and I felt defeated.

I talked to a LFS in Seattle when visiting and the owner was a marine biologist. I told him about my dinoflagellates and he told me this is what I need to do.

1.) double check my TDS in my RODI
2.) double my clean up crew
3.) aggressive water changes 2-3 times a week 25 gallons.
4.) buy a reactor and immediately start running Rowaphos.

I checked my TDS and the water was pretty bad. I was buying from a LFS and the water read over 100 TDS. I bought a 6 stage RODI and my reading is 0 now.

I added 30 more hermits

Started aggressive water changes and sucked out the dino.

I bought a reactor and started running rowaphos.

The next day I noticed the dino start to change colors and not grow as fast. I continued to swap out the rowaphos every couple days and am still running it today.

Currently my No3 is 10 and Po4 is 0.04. AND my Dinos are gone. Tank is looking real good and everything seems stable.

Long story but know you have some bed time reading to put you to sleep .

Im curious of how you checked the LFS TDS? Did you check the water directly coming from the RO/DI or did you check it in your bucket? I had a very similar concern as yours which i thought TDS was the cause of my algae bloom. I measured the TDS coming directly from my RODI and it was ZERO but in my buckets it shot way HIGH. 70ish! I was told this is ok just as long as the RODI is producing ZERO.?!

 

[mcarroll]

I've actually started to get some encrusting from my acropora, which is a first for the tank. So, moving the right direction.

Yes!!!!

Is PO4 hanging in there along with NO3?

The more I read, the more I think that some of the problems I'm seeing, from strange algae like chryso to slow/no growth is all related to having used dry rock.

There's a common set of factors in most weirdo algae blooms like this and dry rock seems to be one of them. How significant a factor it is (or even whether it's significant) is an open question.

I don't think dry rock is "not from the reef" BTW.....if it's dead coral skeletons, then it's been removed from the sea.

It seems like it adds a good 6 months to the tank break in process and significantly increases the amount of time it takes to get a stable system.

Interesting observation! Subject of the next BRS video series?

 

[TechnicalFisher]

Yes!!!!

Is PO4 hanging in there along with NO3?

PO4 has continued to be low to non-existent (tested 0 tonight) so I finally decided to start dosing it as well. Started out with 4ml of Seachem Flourish Phosphate and will test again in the am.

I've been using a daily maintenance dose of 15ml of my soectracide solution, which had me staying just over 10 ppm. I went a few days without testing and tonight it had spiked to 20 or so. I'd left my skimmmer off accidentally for 24 hrs so not sure if that was it. Either way, will dial it back for the next few days.

Good news is cyano is completely gone and chryso appears to be really dying off. Tank isn't clean yet but getting very close. I'm hoping the PO4 dosing and getting my ratios right will be the final piece of the puzzle!

 

[mcarroll]

I'm hoping the PO4 dosing and getting my ratios right will be the final piece of the puzzle!

It seems to be the presence and availability of PO4 more than a particular ratio in the water. Above 0.10 ppm PO4 does seem to have a suppressing effect on dino blooms, but other than that I don't know any specific targets to shoot for for N or P levels.

Just make sure there is always "some" and not "none".

 

[jwshiver]

I was making good progress on the dinos until I went out of town for 3 days. When I returned home the dinos were worse than before. I checked my parameters and sure enough both NO3 and PO4 bottomed out. I had my wife dose half of what I was dosing while I was gone because I didn't want to get a spike in my numbers without me here to monitor them and I removed my UV before I left. What a big mistake. I have received a new UV bulb and will get that back on line this afternoon. Basically I'm starting all over again but with a worse outbreak than what I started with. The Chrsyo is gone and I confirmed dinos in microscope.