Never going to use live rock again

Oscaror · Oct 10, 2015

My rock has phosphates leeching out, I don't think there's a way to fix this. My tank is covered in algae and my zoas are dying, the rest of my corals are probably on the waiting list.

Why does everyone say to start with live rock, is it worth it at all? With dry rock you can pre plan your aquascape, there's no risk of phosphates leeching or pests. It'll even turn live over time, with live rock you have to aquascape in the tank, which usually leads to a rock wall, you WILL have pests, aiptasia & asterina at least, and you can have the same problem I'm having right now. Are there really any benefits to using live rock, or is it just so you can start up faster. I'd rather start up slowly and have a successful tank, than start up quickly and have my tank crash later on.

Well there's my rant on death rock, does anyone know if there's an actual solution to leeching phosphates?

veselym · Oct 10, 2015

I used LR once and that was the last time...too much of a pain in the you know what

not sure what to do on leaching phosphates, maybe just get a GFO reactor and change out the media weekly and get some macro algae

Naiad · Oct 10, 2015

Where did you buy the rock from? The main reason I use liverock is because my fish depend on the micro fauna. The liverock insures I start with a good variety.

FishAddict87 · Oct 10, 2015

Dry rock can leach phosphoates as well. You can also get GFO and put it in a mesh bag and keep it in your sump. Replace it every few weeks to a month.

twilliard · Oct 10, 2015

Oscaror said:
My rock has phosphates leeching out, I don't think there's a way to fix this. My tank is covered in algae and my zoas are dying, the rest of my corals are probably on the waiting list.

Why does everyone say to start with live rock, is it worth it at all? With dry rock you can pre plan your aquascape, there's no risk of phosphates leeching or pests. It'll even turn live over time, with live rock you have to aquascape in the tank, which usually leads to a rock wall, you WILL have pests, aiptasia & asterina at least, and you can have the same problem I'm having right now. Are there really any benefits to using live rock, or is it just so you can start up faster. I'd rather start up slowly and have a successful tank, than start up quickly and have my tank crash later on.

Well there's my rant on death rock, does anyone know if there's an actual solution to leeching phosphates?

I'm sorry Oscaror
I have been using live rock since 2005 in many tanks.
It is true that it takes diligence when it comes to the algaes. But as far as po4 leaching out of the rocks I have never seen definitive proof coming directly from the oceans.
In my opinion its when people "cure" this rock in barrels and never changing the water is when the po4 released from the algaes gets deep within the pores of the rock.
Sorry to hear your frustrations!

Todd

reefwiser · Oct 10, 2015

What type of live rock? Most "live rock " sold today is dead rock compared to the "Live Rock" from 20 years ago. Fresh live rock direct from the ocean should be placed in a tank and then the tank will cycle due to the die off of animals living on the rock. This would take a couple of months to get a stable tank. If rocks are purchased from a LFS. then this dead rock would need to cycle thru for a few months before I would add anything to the tank. Phosphates could only come from animals dying off the rock. Rock itself does leach phosphate.

brandon429 · Oct 10, 2015

All live rock that ever goes into my tank will be permanently algae free, impervious to every photosynthetic and flagellate invader and the worst I might get is a mantis. All of it. Each time, without fail. My lfs does all the pre during for me in vats since 2001

specific sets of repeating steps one can do on live rock make it under our control, and opposite steps give different variances.

Curious to know how it's pinpointed to po4 coming from the rock

Did you set a rock you'd blast cleaned of all detritus into a bucket of pre salifert or Hanna tested zero po4 water and then test po4 in two days?

Someone set a phone reminder and call me out on this

In 2028 pm me to see if I own any nitrate or po4 test kits and for a full tank shot algae accountability check

We should never ever think an algae issue allowed to set in deep is indicative of po4 that's a misnomer in reefing circles. There are some holdfast driven species that harvest nutrients so well you'd never beat it without lucky grazing or direct action and it has nothing to do with nutrients. But if a specific isolate po4 leach test was done then I agree above, let's hunt some organics

Pics

The wait for dry cycle rock to catch up to the benthic diversity from live rocks would drive me crazy when insta mature is an option. My lfs charges me $3 per asterina I used to buy them for my tank, there were specific plans in place that made zos grow so fast nothing predates them and they looked cool as mini stars on the glass.

James7733 · Oct 10, 2015

Live rock is fine. You just have to use your smarts. All live rock regardless of where you acquire it should be re-cured. All tanks should have a reactor with phosphate and nitrate removal media. A good sump/refugium loaded with macro algae does wonders for nitrates as well.

robert · Oct 10, 2015

live rock is ok - sometimes you get some cool hitchikers - but more often than not you get some nasties you really don't want. On balance - its not worth it - at least not to me.

If I buy live rock - because its a nice rock - good shape etc - I always kill it by soaking in a strong mix of H2O2 for a few days before putting it in my tank - this kills and removes most organics - some scrubbing may be required. After its pretty well cleaned up, I generally soak in a lanthium chloride (swimming pool supply) bath for a few hours to a day more - rinse and use.

Residual organics can be a problem - you may seen patches of algae - but you'll see the same with dry rock too. I generally treat any dry rock the same way.

Phosphates and heavy metals bind to rock and sand pretty readily especially oolitic sand - how much a rock contains is usually a function of where it was collected from. You can dissolve some in muratic acid and test that for phosphate if your suspicious -

brandon429 · Oct 10, 2015

Robert why do you kill it I'm curious, they sell base rock so much cheaper and its ready for cycling?

Wiz · Oct 10, 2015

I have a lot of liverock in my 40b and 30g dsb fuge (oolitic sand). I wouldn't think of using only dryrock. Maybe its just me. My phosphates are undetectable. The tank will eventually evolve the correct amount of bacterias for the amounts of nutrient that are present. I don't understand the dryrock idea. For a nice piece design maybe. But a reef should not be a sterile enviornment. Every bit of bacteria and microfauna is a help. There are a few "bad" things. But they can be dealt with. Just part of keeping a part of the ocean in your house. I have had high nitrates and high phosphates. Diversity is a huge player in health. I love all the lil creatures that come on my live rock. I have had aefw, planaria, pumpkin flatworm, digitate hydroids, vermatids, dinos,hair algae, cyano, bryopsis, bubble algae and more. But I also have hundreds of different bugs, worms, snails etc. That I believe are very helpful in keeping my reef healthy. Adversity creates strength. Diversity creates beauty.This wonderful hobby has a lot of hardships,But I believe that is what makes it so satisfying.
In the end I think it depends on what your targets are. If you just want a tank full of sticks to look at then I guess dry rock would do just fine. But if you'd like a healthy thriving Reef in your living room I think live rock is a must. That's just in my opinion

EW_Fish · Oct 10, 2015

You started to quickly it sounds like. Just because its live rock dosn't mean your tank still wont cycle. Any rock can leech p04. Many factors can also lead to high p04 other then rock just because the algea is on your dosn't mean thats where its coming from.

James7733 · Oct 10, 2015

I agree with what Wiz said. Live rock is the best!!

steve&mari · Oct 10, 2015

I feel it's dependent on what's available to you quality wise. Around us I don't care for the live rock at lfs but kept our old live rock from before and recured it and seeded it with pods and couple small chunks of live rock. I'm way happy with how it's worked out using the old dry rock.

Oscaror · Oct 10, 2015

Thanks for all the help, also, I would never use dry rock alone, I'd put in live rock to seed it, and then remove the live rock. Thanks for the help, you think maybe mangroves would help?

brandon429 · Oct 10, 2015

No I feel they would not, biomass isn't quick enough. How did you establish its po4 did you do an isolated test

Pete polyp · Oct 10, 2015

I will only use live rock because of the diversity that comes on it. It sounds to me like the live rock you bought is complete junk, like hatian. There were no pests at all that came from my rock. Only pods, bristleworms, breeding populations of chiton, micro brittle stars and snails from what I can tell. Saying that live rock will be loaded with pests is complete nonsense. The asterina stars (which don't have any threat to my tank) I have came from corals. The same with the very few aiptasia I have seen in my tank. If you research and buy high quality live rock you will not have those issues.

Pete polyp · Oct 10, 2015

brandon429 said:
Robert why do you kill it I'm curious, they sell base rock so much cheaper and its ready for cycling?

You may save a very little amount of money buying base rock up front. By the time you treat it correctly to put into the tank (acid and lanthanum bath) buy pods, bristleworms and microstarfish you will have more in it than buying good live rock.

This is by far the best rock I have ever seen in my 15 years of keeping reef
http://www.saltysupply.com/mobile/Product.aspx?id=5459

robert · Oct 10, 2015

brandon429 said:
Robert why do you kill it I'm curious, they sell base rock so much cheaper and its ready for cycling?

Because there is nothing on it I need...and if I don't know whats on it I especially don't want it....

Trust me - I undestand the other side - I have made such arguments myself in the past. They sound good.

brandon429 · Oct 10, 2015

Well it certainly doesn't hurt to treat the substrate in any way and then guide it back with a custom aging approach we're all doing that to some degree.

I'll never forget the first time I saw painted fake live rock. This poster had the pic up and it looked like the sweetest coralline ever and his tank didn't have any bacteria in it, couldn't get it to digest any ammonia talk about a head scratcher. You still had to treat it as bone white start fresh

often thought custom coralline covered pumice with mini fanworms jutting out from being custom cured in the presence of good suspended feed would make sick live rock but I don't know how to get it to sink. Surface area