New Nitrifying Bacteria Experiment.

[MnFish1]

The result can be - the same as before in the aquarium that have no light in the first experiment - because as you say - it is not likely there is many photosynthetic organism there and it will be the same as no light exp 1 when you put the light exposed (in test1) into the dark. If this happens - I´ll think that the indications about that photosynthetic organisms was active in your first test is very strong

Sincerely Lasse

OK will post pictures soon

 

[MnFish1]

Experiment 2

Tank 1 Dry Sump Rock - Lit
Tank 2 Display tank Rock - Dark

4 gallons water, 5.2 lbs rock each tank. Parameters Before adding Ammonia:
pH 7.8. SG 1.026, Temp 78, Ammonia API 0 Yellow. Ammonia Seachem Alert 0. Nitrite 0 Nitrate 0

 

[MnFish1]

PS - I have to find better lighting for the pictures - using 'daylight' the ammonia is 2 PPM (perhaps slightly higher)

 

[DrZoidburg]

Sorry I dont understand that question?

Misinterpreted what was said in other thread. Thinking that maybe surface area would be more necessary in higher flow.

 

[sixty_reefer]

No update tonight?

 

[MnFish1]

No update tonight?

Its coming. Sorry - holiday - I have the stuff done - but there is a tech issue here. leaving for dinner - for some reason - cant get pictures to upload

 

[Lasse]

Misinterpreted what was said in other thread. Thinking that maybe surface area would be more necessary in higher flow.

This is not my experiences. This statement is based on the fact that lower flow get a thicker biofilm - may be so but it does not meant that the nitrification part of it will be more populated by nitrifiers. IME - it is only the most outerly part of the biofilm that is active in nitrification. This is probably more important in saltwater with its lower oxygen content compared with freshwater. In running tests - i have always get better nitrification rate in high flow compared with low flow (in the same filter). the explanation for this have always been that a thinner biofilm containing of younger nitrifiers with high access to oxygen will be created in such environment. The high flow flush away the thicker biofilm (most heterotrophs) an leave a thin active biofilm of mostly nitrifiers.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Data from Experiment 2 Day 2. (Sorry no pictures - Deleted)
Tank 1 (Lit formerly Dark Sump rock) is UNDERPERFORMING TANK 2 (Formerly Lit, now Dark)

Both tanks are better than Experiment 1

 

[MnFish1]

Data from Experiment 2 Day 3 (48 Hours). (Sorry no pictures - Deleted)
Tank 1 (Lit formerly Dark Sump rock) is UNDERPERFORMING TANK 2 (Formerly Lit, now Dark)
Nearly all of the ammonia is processed in Tank 2 (the formerly lit NOW DARK)

THIS SUGGESTS? THAT IT WAS PERHAPS NOT PHOTOSYNTHESIS PLAYING A ROLE IN AMMONIA CONSUMPTION?

 

[Lasse]

Interesting

However - I would suggest to do all coming tests either in dark or light - I would prefer dark

Sincerely Lasse

 

[sixty_reefer]

This is really cool, could mean that we got more nitrifying bacteria in the display

 

[MnFish1]

Interesting

However - I would suggest to do all coming tests either in dark or light - I would prefer dark

Sincerely Lasse

I'm happy to do that - I assume - its to show that photosynthesis is not playing a role?

 

[MnFish1]

Interesting

However - I would suggest to do all coming tests either in dark or light - I would prefer dark

Sincerely Lasse

PS - would you have a concern that the tank rock that has been exposed to light for years that is now in the dark will have some die-off -which will - in that tank - artificially raise ammonia - and thus change the results?

Second - I'm ok (As I said previously) - with doing either one. Is your rationale that we are then leaving out 'one more variable'? Anyone else can 'weigh in' @Coxey81, @Dan_P, @sixty_reefer - I guess I can see more utility to doing both in the dark.

@Sixty-Reefer and @Coxey81. Just a quick question - In your experiments - my recollection is that you never were Able to completely process 2 ppm Ammonia in 24 hours - is that correct - before you finally did 'the rinse'?

@brandon429 - a quick question. Since now in 5-6 different tank set up's - it SEEMS like that though ammonia is processed from day 1, that with each successive addition of ammonia that ammonia is processed more quickly over time - does this suggest to you that indeed, bacteria are increasing in number in response to 'more food' - remembering that these rocks were in water for 'years'? Just curious about your opinion.

I'm guessing that today (results coming- with pictures) the ammonia will be processed. Since the plan all along was to keep going until 2 ppm ammonia was processed by day 2 ie,24 hours - I will plan (unless others have comments) - to re-set up both tanks, add new water and 2 ppm ammonia - and run them both in the dark.

** Note - I have not been rinsing the glass, Filter, etc etc between changes - so - IT COULD also be happening that the rock is saturated with bacteria from the start - and the new 'nitrification ability' - is due to ore bacteria on these surfaces. After the tanks process 2 ppm ammonia - my next plan will be to wash the tank and glass etc - and repeat x 2 before trying any rinse/soaking protocols.

I know this is taking a while - but - people had lots of questions/.comments/issues the last time - and hopefully - some of these preliminary things will help take away some of that doubt. One thing I'm very interested in is the 'API kit' - which is supposedly 'notoriously inaccurate'. I have always processed ammonia to '0' as compared to '.25'.

 

[brandon429]

MN I truly do not know, nice job on your experiment so sorry I don't have any helpful input Im watching your logs and Lasse's + DZ's + your evaluations ongoing to learn from it all. I was about to ask for a current summary of things based on how you see the data so far. Im not good enough at analyzing data to pick out details so far but experiments like this ran by multiple people are really really good for the hobby for sure.

 

[Rmckoy]

Following ..

 

[Coxey81]

PS - would you have a concern that the tank rock that has been exposed to light for years that is now in the dark will have some die-off -which will - in that tank - artificially raise ammonia - and thus change the results?

Second - I'm ok (As I said previously) - with doing either one. Is your rationale that we are then leaving out 'one more variable'? Anyone else can 'weigh in' @Coxey81, @Dan_P, @sixty_reefer - I guess I can see more utility to doing both in the dark.

@Sixty-Reefer and @Coxey81. Just a quick question - In your experiments - my recollection is that you never were Able to completely process 2 ppm Ammonia in 24 hours - is that correct - before you finally did 'the rinse'?

@brandon429 - a quick question. Since now in 5-6 different tank set up's - it SEEMS like that though ammonia is processed from day 1, that with each successive addition of ammonia that ammonia is processed more quickly over time - does this suggest to you that indeed, bacteria are increasing in number in response to 'more food' - remembering that these rocks were in water for 'years'? Just curious about your opinion.

I'm guessing that today (results coming- with pictures) the ammonia will be processed. Since the plan all along was to keep going until 2 ppm ammonia was processed by day 2 ie,24 hours - I will plan (unless others have comments) - to re-set up both tanks, add new water and 2 ppm ammonia - and run them both in the dark.

** Note - I have not been rinsing the glass, Filter, etc etc between changes - so - IT COULD also be happening that the rock is saturated with bacteria from the start - and the new 'nitrification ability' - is due to ore bacteria on these surfaces. After the tanks process 2 ppm ammonia - my next plan will be to wash the tank and glass etc - and repeat x 2 before trying any rinse/soaking protocols.

I know this is taking a while - but - people had lots of questions/.comments/issues the last time - and hopefully - some of these preliminary things will help take away some of that doubt. One thing I'm very interested in is the 'API kit' - which is supposedly 'notoriously inaccurate'. I have always processed ammonia to '0' as compared to '.25'.

I was able to process 2ppm in 24. But was dosing 3ppm. I never was able to do that in 24 hours, got it down to 30ish hours.

Sixty was able to process around 4ppm in his first 24 hours, I believe.

 

[Coxey81]

This is really cool, could mean that we got more nitrifying bacteria in the display

Well considering that is where the majority of the food source is created... that would make sense to me.

 

[Lasse]

PS - would you have a concern that the tank rock that has been exposed to light for years that is now in the dark will have some die-off -which will - in that tank - artificially raise ammonia - and thus change the results?

May - maybe not. Your "dark" stones can also have organic matter with them and it seems like there is not much photosynthetic organism extra on the "lighted" stones

@brandon429 - a quick question. Since now in 5-6 different tank set up's - it SEEMS like that though ammonia is processed from day 1, that with each successive addition of ammonia that ammonia is processed more quickly over time - does this suggest to you that indeed, bacteria are increasing in number in response to 'more food' - remembering that these rocks were in water for 'years'? Just curious about your opinion.

At least I think it is that way

I'm guessing that today (results coming- with pictures) the ammonia will be processed. Since the plan all along was to keep going until 2 ppm ammonia was processed by day 2 ie,24 hours - I will plan (unless others have comments) - to re-set up both tanks, add new water and 2 ppm ammonia - and run them both in the dark.

** Note - I have not been rinsing the glass, Filter, etc etc between changes - so - IT COULD also be happening that the rock is saturated with bacteria from the start - and the new 'nitrification ability' - is due to ore bacteria on these surfaces. After the tanks process 2 ppm ammonia - my next plan will be to wash the tank and glass etc - and repeat x 2 before trying any rinse/soaking protocols.

I know this is taking a while - but - people had lots of questions/.comments/issues the last time - and hopefully - some of these preliminary things will help take away some of that doubt. One thing I'm very interested in is the 'API kit' - which is supposedly 'notoriously inaccurate'. I have always processed ammonia to '0' as compared to '.25'.

Let it take the time that is needed

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

I was able to process 2ppm in 24. But was dosing 3ppm. I never was able to do that in 24 hours, got it down to 30ish hours.

Sixty was able to process around 4ppm in his first 24 hours, I believe.

I re-did some of your measurements - or perhaps mis-re-did them lol

I think I have been reading the ammonia kit a bit incorrectly - and I wonder if your original results were closer to 4 ppm than 3 - in any case. I believe that my initial results - because I was trying to follow yours - was '2 ppm' - in reality they were probably between 2 and 4. Starting with the next test - I am going to add 1 cc - and then keep adding .05 cc ammonia - until I reach 2 ppm - then use that volume for the rest of the tests.

In any case - in no circumstance the amount of ammonia an 'overdose'. It still shows that the rock process ammonia - and that the lit tank processes the rock that was lit - processed more amonnia - more quickly than the dark sump rock. (EVEN WHEN THE lights were turned off in the 'formerly lit' tank.

 

[Dan_P]

Second - I'm ok (As I said previously) - with doing either one. Is your rationale that we are then leaving out 'one more variable'? Anyone else can 'weigh in' @Coxey81, @Dan_P, @sixty_reefer - I guess I can see more utility to doing both in the dark.

My thoughts go something like this.

The rock biofilm begins to change the minute you move the rock to a new environment. Some life forms die, some leave the rock, others grow to fill the new space. The effects I would wonder about include, chemical and biological.

Chemical. Will the rock chemical emissions effect my experiment measurements? Will NH3 be produced by the rock irrespective of what is added?

Biological. Is the rock ammonia consumption bacteria or algae dominated? How does an algae dominated biofilm behave in the dark?