New Nitrifying Bacteria Experiment.

[MnFish1]

Tomorrow - I will report the 'unofficial' results - as to what the ammonia is - etc - I will not wait - I'm going to go to the next experiment - either way . But - if the ammonia today was processed - (which was somewhat about 2 ppm) - it will say a lot. I'm sorry. personal issues prevented me from completing what I wanted over the last couple days

 

[sixty_reefer]

Tomorrow - I will report the 'unofficial' results - as to what the ammonia is - etc - I will not wait - I'm going to go to the next experiment - either way . But - if the ammonia today was processed - (which was somewhat about 2 ppm) - it will say a lot. I'm sorry. personal issues prevented me from completing what I wanted over the last couple days

Is your harm better now?

 

[MnFish1]

Is your harm better now?

Yes - finally - thanks!!

 

[MnFish1]

FYI - one

Does the nitrate nitrogen produced equal the ammonia nitrogen added?

PS - I have noted persistently - that though the same amount of ammonia is added to both tanks - and the PPM at the start is exactly the same - the nitrate level in tank 2 (which has consistently processed nitrate faster) has a higher nitrate level than tank 1. So - was wondering - does the tank 2(originally in the lit display) - have more bacteria that can process nitrite - (thus a higher nitrate) than tank 1 - or 2) does Tank 1 have more areas that can process Nitrate - and thus the lower/different amounts.?

 

[Dan_P]

FYI - one

PS - I have noted persistently - that though the same amount of ammonia is added to both tanks - and the PPM at the start is exactly the same - the nitrate level in tank 2 (which has consistently processed nitrate faster) has a higher nitrate level than tank 1. So - was wondering - does the tank 2(originally in the lit display) - have more bacteria that can process nitrite - (thus a higher nitrate) than tank 1 - or 2) does Tank 1 have more areas that can process Nitrate - and thus the lower/different amounts.?

I don’t recall all the data from this experiment, so, I will have to ask a question. When nitrate is lower does that mean a slower ammonia oxidation rate, or higher ammonia assimilation rate? Could the rocks differ in nitrification capacity and ammonia assimilation capacity?

I haven’t dealt with this situation yet because my biofilms are presumably pure nitrification bioflims (Bio-Spira biofilms). When @taricha asked what was eating ammonia in his aquarium, I think he found evidence that it was not all being oxidized.

 

[MnFish1]

I don’t recall all the data from this experiment, so, I will have to ask a question. When nitrate is lower does that mean a slower ammonia oxidation rate, or higher ammonia assimilation rate? Could the rocks differ in nitrification capacity and ammonia assimilation capacity?

I haven’t dealt with this situation yet because my biofilms are presumably pure nitrification bioflims (Bio-Spira biofilms). When @taricha asked what was eating ammonia in his aquarium, I think he found evidence that it was not all being oxidized.

Yes - that was the question. What do you think? If you look at the thread - it could be either one.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes - that was the question. What do you think? If you look at the thread - it could be either one.

Additionally - I do not know - whether your biofilms are pure 'biofilms'. but assume they are. This is one of the reasons I've asked R2R to groups these experiments in one place as compared to multiple threads which other people have no access too. (i.e. I did n't know exactly what you were going with biofilms exactly). In this case, though - the tank 1 (sump rock - in the dark for years) and tanks 2 (lit in the display) - I would assume tank 1 is a 'biofilm only - or mainly' - However there is no way to knwo exactly

 

[MnFish1]

FYI to all @Coxey81, @Lasse, @sixty_reefer, @taricha, @NeonRabbit221B etc etc - The rock processed all of the ammonia added yesterday - down to zero. Tomorrow - will restart the experiment - at a convenient time - for measuring, etc - such that it can be consistent from day to day. Will document (as already described) - that the rock x 2 will process 2 ppm ammonia - using the new dose - then proceed with the rest.

 

[MnFish1]

FYI to all @Coxey81, @Lasse, @sixty_reefer, @taricha, @NeonRabbit221B etc etc - The rock processed all of the ammonia added yesterday - down to zero. Tomorrow - will restart the experiment - at a convenient time - for measuring, etc - such that it can be consistent from day to day. Will document (as already described) - that the rock x 2 will process 2 ppm ammonia - using the new dose - then proceed with the rest.

Experiment 4 started - with 0.78 cc Dr. Tims ammonia per tank - here are the pre-post results - (all fresh saltwater added - tanks not cleanned):

The ammonia in both tanks has been processed (once) at 2 ppm in 24 hours. The ammonia - 2 ppm - in the tank water is shown. You'll just have to trust me on the rest . Tomorrow - Will try to do another AM measurement (thus I started later today) - with nitrite, and nitrate - to try to get a 'curve' of sorts.

 

[Coxey81]

Experiment 4 started - with 0.78 cc Dr. Tims ammonia per tank - here are the pre-post results - (all fresh saltwater added - tanks not cleanned):

The ammonia in both tanks has been processed (once) at 2 ppm in 24 hours. The ammonia - 2 ppm - in the tank water is shown. You'll just have to trust me on the rest . Tomorrow - Will try to do another AM measurement (thus I started later today) - with nitrite, and nitrate - to try to get a 'curve' of sorts.

Sorry, been a bit busy and trying to following along.

So you managed to get both to process the 2ppm in 24 with both in the dark... and Your going to repeat that with what you just redosed?

Then after that begin with rinse tests?

 

[DrZoidburg]

@MnFish1 Thinking maybe some reasons not seeing nitrate equal in the end. E2 final, but with ammonia showing still in test tank1. Error or un processed? It does look like one is around 20, and the other over 20 but closer to 40. Noticeable difference. 1 maybe different bacteria converting it to other N gas forms that escape. It did live in a slower flow area? Is there any noticeable die off of algae or critters in tank 2 maybe leaching trace phosphorus speeding it up? Would think tank 1 would show nitrite or ammonia still and everything would add up to 40ppm+/- in the end. 2 maybe something chemical happening. I.e metal impurities like mention before. Just curious is this reef saver rock or another mined rock in tank 1? The other day I was using a diamond wheel wet saw to cut mined rock frag disks. Well it usually has some iron staining, but this time it threw off sparks. Could of been from the rock itself or something hard like quartz hitting diamond wheel. Usually doesn't do this though. That is sign of metals possibly in it. Its a mystery where did it go heh..

 

[Dan_P]

Yes - that was the question. What do you think? If you look at the thread - it could be either one.

I just thought of two more possibilities that might muddy the waters further. I cannot give any sort of likelihood that either possibility is important.

Denitrification rate differences, either nitrate to nitrogen or nitrate to ammonia, might (?) be playing a role in determining nitrate concentrations.

One implication is that rip cleaning might have a different effect on each of these pathways.

My brain is having difficulty speculating on an answer

 

[Lasse]

Denitrification rate differences, either nitrate to nitrogen or nitrate to ammonia, might (?) be playing a role in determining nitrate concentrations.

One implication is that rip cleaning might have a different effect on each of these pathways.

This assumes that the live rocks would have a significant capacity for denitrification prior to testing. My experience is that this is not normally the case. Normally, there is both too little DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) and too little flow in the oxygen-free inner parts of the living rocks to give a significant denitrification rate. Especially in a case like this - high exposure to growing nitrate and short exposure time

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry, been a bit busy and trying to following along.

So you managed to get both to process the 2ppm in 24 with both in the dark... and Your going to repeat that with what you just redosed?

Then after that begin with rinse tests?

Yes

 

[Dan_P]

This assumes that the live rocks would have a significant capacity for denitrification prior to testing. My experience is that this is not normally the case. Normally, there is both too little DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) and too little flow in the oxygen-free inner parts of the living rocks to give a significant denitrification rate. Especially in a case like this - high exposure to growing nitrate and short exposure time

Sincerely Lasse

Good point about DOC content of the water in this experiment. The comments around flow can be tested.

Is the majority of denitrification in the sand bed?

 

[MnFish1]

Experiment 4 started - with 0.78 cc Dr. Tims ammonia per tank - here are the pre-post results - (all fresh saltwater added - tanks not cleanned):

The ammonia in both tanks has been processed (once) at 2 ppm in 24 hours. The ammonia - 2 ppm - in the tank water is shown. You'll just have to trust me on the rest . Tomorrow - Will try to do another AM measurement (thus I started later today) - with nitrite, and nitrate - to try to get a 'curve' of sorts.

FYi - update - at 6PM yesterday (24 hours) - all ammonia measurements were at 'zero' including sachem. Nitrites were 0, Nitrate still was 'higher in tank 2.

Interesting observations:

1. The Seachem alert seems to still function quite well - though the rate of change when the ammonia goes from 0 to 2 is immediate - it seems like the drop is slower (i.e. when I add fresh SW to the tank - the alert does not immediately turn back to yellow'.
2. The Nitrate differences remain interesting.
3. Even though tank 2 (the former display tank that was lit) has been in the dark for several days - the green algae (a small amount of Chaeto) - and Coralline algae are all still present (when I turn on the lights to view) - I suppose this is partly to be expected.

 

[MnFish1]

OK Guys - I have not been posting all of the pictures - because things are kind of self-explanatory. But today starts Experiment 4A - Which is a replicate of Experiment 4. Both tanks 1 and 2 dark. 2 ppm ammonia to start. If processing of ammonia persists, then will move onto the RINSING experiments (that everyone has waited for)!!!. I already posted the proposed order - But just a brief summary of the plan for the rest of the days.

Experiment 4a - Replicate of 2ppm processed in 24 hours.
Experiment 5a - Leave Rock the same - BUT - completely wash/clean the tank, HOB filters, Heaters, etc - to see how much the 'tank equipment' - is doing as compared to the rock.
Experiment 5b - A replicate of Experiment 5a. (unless people do not think this is needed?)

Along that line - does every want replicates of each rinsing experiment? - Or - should I just each successive rinse once? @Lasse, @Coxey81, @sixty_reefer, @Dan_P, @taricha - and everyone else?

 

[MnFish1]

Another comment:

I had talked about Saltwater Rinsing - before 'Freshwater Rinsing'. Essentially I have been doing that experiment for the last several times - i.e. the tank is flushed with saltwater (new) every new experiment) - and there has been no 'decline' - but instead an increase daily. Comments? (i.e. I will probably go directly to freshwater rock rinsing at varying temperatures and chlorine)??

 

[brandon429]

one guess to hazard may be that rinsing removes competing sloughs and keeps the surface area presentation at max

the thinnest veneer of working bioslick on surfaces is ideal, any stacking beyond that starts to reduce surface area presentation by closing in gaps and troughs in the rock.

 

[Dan_P]

OK Guys - I have not been posting all of the pictures - because things are kind of self-explanatory. But today starts Experiment 4A - Which is a replicate of Experiment 4. Both tanks 1 and 2 dark. 2 ppm ammonia to start. If processing of ammonia persists, then will move onto the RINSING experiments (that everyone has waited for)!!!. I already posted the proposed order - But just a brief summary of the plan for the rest of the days.

Experiment 4a - Replicate of 2ppm processed in 24 hours.
Experiment 5a - Leave Rock the same - BUT - completely wash/clean the tank, HOB filters, Heaters, etc - to see how much the 'tank equipment' - is doing as compared to the rock.
Experiment 5b - A replicate of Experiment 5a. (unless people do not think this is needed?)

Along that line - does every want replicates of each rinsing experiment? - Or - should I just each successive rinse once? @Lasse, @Coxey81, @sixty_reefer, @Dan_P, @taricha - and everyone else?

If rinsing produces little or no effect, maybe redo the experiment with more “intense” rinsing.