No love for MH?

[Reefs of Space]

But that disco-ball free halide shimmer can't be beat.

That's what I love most about my halides. The shimmer is just like the sun shining through the water at the beach. It's the best way to have a natural looking reef, but we've all come to love those flourescent colors from leds. That's why I have a 3 hour time period where it's just the halides, then the other lights come back on.

 

[Reefs of Space]

My lack of love for halide is only due to heat issues. If we could find a way for them to not heat up tanks, they'd be the best thing out there.

My Cebu Sun fixture from Hamilton Technology is fully enclosed with 2 fans, one pushing air in and the other pushing air out. I also have the same fan setup going across the water under the fixture. My fixture is only 4 inches above the water with no heat issues.

 

[biecacka]

I think many ppl add other light sources to halides to lengthen their viewing time. I tried led bars for that purpose. I ran my halides 10 hours a day and ran the led bars 1 hour before and after lights off fo RMF viewing pleasure only. I have since ditched them and I ONLY rock halides on he tank and I love it for me. Today it is -4 right now and with my halides going my tank is 78.2 degrees and in the summer when it gets 90-100° with full humidity I run the air and keep my tank at 78° also.

Corey

 

[MnFish1]

The more the better gives you the ability to space them out, thus giving you better coverage and a lot less shadowing. This is the main reason more people are using the Radion XR15's compared to their XR 30 lights. Same price, just better spread and less shadowing, example, people will use 6 XR 15's instead of 3 XR 30's, which when spaced out, gives you a better spread, and a lot less shadowing.

This kind of makes sense to me - but I think Im misunderstanding. To me 'the more the better' means - if you can fit say 6 radions on your tank ( ie. 6 radion xr30's) - you should use 6 even though you could use 5 (i.e. the more the better). I have a feeling Im not understanding your point.

 

[Crabs McJones]

My Cebu Sun fixture from Hamilton Technology is fully enclosed with 2 fans, one pushing air in and the other pushing air out. I also have the same fan setup going across the water under the fixture. My fixture is only 4 inches above the water with no heat issues.

I use this same fixture, how deep is your tank? I've got mine about 8" off the waters surface to the bottom of the fixture.

 

[Crabs McJones]

That's what I love most about my halides. The shimmer is just like the sun shining through the water at the beach. It's the best way to have a natural looking reef, but we've all come to love those flourescent colors from leds. That's why I have a 3 hour time period where it's just the halides, then the other lights come back on.

Could you share your full lighting schedule with me please? That'd be awesome

 

[biecacka]

@MnFish1, I think what he is saying is if you need 6 light sources you can accomplish it with 6xr15’s for the price of 3 xr30’s. This way you can light your tank where you need it and not have light pointing to parts of the tank that is is getting “wasted”. The 6fixtures allow for more flexibility

Corey

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1, I think what he is saying is if you need 6 light sources you can accomplish it with 6xr15’s for the price of 3 xr30’s. This way you can light your tank where you need it and not have light pointing to parts of the tank that is is getting “wasted”. The 6fixtures allow for more flexibility

Corey

Thanks. This is a question for both the MH and LED crowd (I've used both) - Why do people with LEDs feel the need to markedly decrease the light they use (i.e. many use their lights ar 30 or 40%) and say they are successful - and yet others use non-adjustable metal halide - with much higher PAR levels and say they are the most successful? Just would like everyones opinion - not a debate. I personally like the look of MH - and therefore - I have my LED's set at between 80 percent and peak of 100 percent starting from Noon to 7 PM - with a 1.5 hour (or so ramp from 0-40% over that 1.5 hour) and a similar ramp down. My tank also received direct sunlight from about 8 AM - noon - in different areas.

 

[jda]

This is a complicated question, IMO. Light quality is the main reason, but the details are harder. Most people who keep their intensities low like the bluer light look and turn their whites (reds, yellows, greens) down quite a bit. If the blues got up much higher without the other accompanying spectrum, they can/do burn coral and sometimes it takes a few weeks or months which gives a period of false positive. However, the people who run higher percentages usually run a broader spectrum where the red can help with Emerson Effect, green can get into the tissue more and otherwise allow the coral to handle/process more light.

There was some REALLY bad "research" done by some LED companies that showed that blue is the only spectrum that is necessary, yet most of the really great tanks that you see either use a full spectrum light source (mercury based) or run their LEDS with nearly all channels up really high (Dr. Joshi, Adam at Battlecorals, WWC, Vivid, etc.). The original white diodes that were used a while back also did not help this since they did burn coral and people got gun-shy - this has long been corrected.

In the end, I do not think that you can have your LEDs up too high without adding in all of the colors. The few that are successful with this are dwarfed by the many that have failed. I also think that in time, most of the people will get to where you are at and run a wider range at higher intensity... but they are just not there yet.

Some of this also boils down to breath and depth of experience. I have had countless people come to my house to get some frags and they swear that they have the best color possible... but then they see my tanks and did not know that coral could look like that. They are not dumb or anything, just inexperienced and have not see as much as other people. There are people on this thread (and even more on the board) who have posts about how they have (had) the best color possible, but then a good piece of time later also have posts about how adding T5s or other types of lighting has made things better. This does not mean that they are liars or stupid, just that they had not seen enough yet. ...so "successful" and "best ever" are kinda dependent on breath and depth of experience. For me, if Copps said that he saw some benefit from this or that, then I would listen - there are about a dozen other people too. Beyond that, I trust my eyes and the hundreds of tanks that I try see nearly every year - some years more than others. Some people also base all of their experience on photos on the internet with a new tank full of booger-sized frags - most mean well, but don't really know much.

Lastly, don't discount that natural sunlight. It can really do wonders... like an even-better version of running a MH for 4 hours over your tank.

 

[MnFish1]

This is a complicated question, IMO. Light quality is the main reason, but the details are harder. Most people who keep their intensities low like the bluer light look and turn their whites (reds, yellows, greens) down quite a bit. If the blues got up much higher without the other accompanying spectrum, they can/do burn coral and sometimes it takes a few weeks or months which gives a period of false positive. However, the people who run higher percentages usually run a broader spectrum where the red can help with Emerson Effect, green can get into the tissue more and otherwise allow the coral to handle/process more light.

There was some REALLY bad "research" done by some LED companies that showed that blue is the only spectrum that is necessary, yet most of the really great tanks that you see either use a full spectrum light source (mercury based) or run their LEDS with nearly all channels up really high (Dr. Joshi, Adam at Battlecorals, WWC, Vivid, etc.). The original white diodes that were used a while back also did not help this since they did burn coral and people got gun-shy - this has long been corrected.

In the end, I do not think that you can have your LEDs up too high without adding in all of the colors. The few that are successful with this are dwarfed by the many that have failed. I also think that in time, most of the people will get to where you are at and run a wider range at higher intensity... but they are just not there yet.

Some of this also boils down to breath and depth of experience. I have had countless people come to my house to get some frags and they swear that they have the best color possible... but then they see my tanks and did not know that coral could look like that. They are not dumb or anything, just inexperienced and have not see as much as other people. There are people on this thread (and even more on the board) who have posts about how they have (had) the best color possible, but then a good piece of time later also have posts about how adding T5s or other types of lighting has made things better. This does not mean that they are liars or stupid, just that they had not seen enough yet. ...so "successful" and "best ever" are kinda dependent on breath and depth of experience. For me, if Copps said that he saw some benefit from this or that, then I would listen - there are about a dozen other people too. Beyond that, I trust my eyes and the hundreds of tanks that I try see nearly every year - some years more than others. Some people also base all of their experience on photos on the internet with a new tank full of booger-sized frags - most mean well, but don't really know much.

Lastly, don't discount that natural sunlight. It can really do wonders... like an even-better version of running a MH for 4 hours over your tank.

Thanks - this makes a lot of sense - Appreciate your clear answer. I personally keep all my channels at 100% (on my Radion's) and the intensity during the day as I mentioned before. I personally dont care for the 'blue look' (but again thats my preference only).

 

[jda]

There should be two categories when LED lighting is doing the heavy lifting. First, the all/mostly blue method. Second, the 100% on all channels method. There is a big difference in the two both in terms of look and also in performance. It is kinda hard to argue with when you have seen enough tanks. We have all seen too many people fail after they see a tank at WWC and then go home and be 60% on blue and UV and 1% on red, green, etc... like they did not know what they just saw at WWC. What they saw was corals that had good color because they were under fuller spectrum lighting, not corals that they used trick lighting to pop with just blues and violets.

There is a third category for supplementation - XHOs over a T5 or MH tank, but these are different since they don't do the heavy lifting.

 

[MnFish1]

There should be two categories when LED lighting is doing the heavy lifting. First, the all/mostly blue method. Second, the 100% on all channels method. There is a big difference in the two both in terms of look and also in performance. It is kinda hard to argue with when you have seen enough tanks. We have all seen too many people fail after they see a tank at WWC and then go home and be 60% on blue and UV and 1% on red, green, etc... like they did not know what they just saw at WWC. What they saw was corals that had good color because they were under fuller spectrum lighting, not corals that they used trick lighting to pop with just blues and violets.

There is a third category for supplementation - XHOs over a T5 or MH tank, but these are different since they don't do the heavy lifting.

Yes - and what I have seen (in a couple friends tanks and some here) - is 80% blue (spectrum) set at 30% intensity for 5 hours. I think some coral might be successful under those conditions - but...

 

[sixty_reefer]

I have noticed that more and more people are switching back to T5’s not to mention if you calculate the price of the fixture plus running costs for 5 years, you will notice that the led option is not always cheaper. In my case t5 worked out way more cheaper than the led option I was looking at.

 

[Jay Norris]

This kind of makes sense to me - but I think Im misunderstanding. ETo me 'the more the better' means - if you can fit say 6 radions on your tank ( ie. 6 radion ed) - you should use 6 even though you could use 5 (i.e. the more the better). I have a feeling Im not understanding your point.

Hi, The main reason I would use 6 XR 15’s over 6 XR 30’s is price. If you need 6 XR 30’s you would then need 12 XR15’s to cover the same area thus you could space the single puck lights further apart, giving you a better spread and less shadowing.

 

[MnFish1]

Hi, The main reason I would use 6 XR 15’s over 6 XR 30’s is price. If you need 6 XR 30’s you would then need 12 XR15’s to cover the same area thus you could space the single puck lights further apart, giving you a better spread and less shadowing.

I agree Jay - there are many variables though. I was just saying - the more the better - depends one what you mean - 'more of what'

 

[MnFish1]

I have noticed that more and more people are switching back to T5’s not to mention if you calculate the price of the fixture plus running costs for 5 years, you will notice that the led option is not always cheaper. In my case t5 worked out way more cheaper than the led option I was looking at.

This is interesting - if you go to BRS and look at the reviews for MH, T5 and LED fixtures you will see that at least based on review of the products (not scientific - repeat not scientific) - far more people are using LED's. Maybe its hype - advertising - IDK. But-Im not sure there is a groundswell movement against LEDS in reef lighting.

 

[sixty_reefer]

This is interesting - if you go to BRS and look at the reviews for MH, T5 and LED fixtures you will see that at least based on review of the products (not scientific - repeat not scientific) - far more people are using LED's. Maybe its hype - advertising - IDK. But-Im not sure there is a groundswell movement against LEDS in reef lighting.

No definitely no movement against leds, this is just something I see, specially on sps keepers. I have noticed going back fully to T5’s or adding t5’s to supplement the leds. My comment is more in a way that most people think that running most leds is cheaper than running t5’s on a 5 year run.

 

[jda]

Most people who post are frontrunners and new to the hobby... or are old timers who really want to help (and sometimes sell things). Of the twenty guys that I posted on the first page who are highly into acropora like I am and have top-5% tanks, only three of us have any kind of online presence or post. A few others will browse, read and buy/sell things, but never post to offer an opinion of help. These guys will just call when they want or need something.

The people who are online are not a good indication of what is really out there. I go into 50-200 homes a month (sometimes more) and I see a lot of tanks - the vast majority are lit by older lights that you can get at WalMart, PetCo or PetSmart (lots of PCs that probably have not had the bulbs changed in years or cheap Aqueon type single-row LEDs) and the tanks look horrible... this is your typical reefer, not the people on this board or the ones that I trade/hang-out with. The typical saltwater reef/tank that I see has only the super easy corals left over from having no water changed in a year and there is 3" on the top that needs topped off and some super hardy fish like some 3" domino damsels, engineer gobies and maybe a large coral beauty or flame angelfish.

 

[Bpb]

Most people who post are frontrunners and new to the hobby... or are old timers who really want to help (and sometimes sell things). Of the twenty guys that I posted on the first page who are highly into acropora like I am and have top-5% tanks, only three of us have any kind of online presence or post. A few others will browse, read and buy/sell things, but never post to offer an opinion of help. These guys will just call when they want or need something.

The people who are online are not a good indication of what is really out there. I go into 50-200 homes a month (sometimes more) and I see a lot of tanks - the vast majority are lit by older lights that you can get at WalMart, PetCo or PetSmart (lots of PCs that probably have not had the bulbs changed in years or cheap Aqueon type single-row LEDs) and the tanks look horrible... this is your typical reefer, not the people on this board or the ones that I trade/hang-out with. The typical saltwater reef/tank that I see has only the super easy corals left over from having no water changed in a year and there is 3" on the top that needs topped off and some super hardy fish like some 3" domino damsels, engineer gobies and maybe a large coral beauty or flame angelfish.

I would call this a pretty dang accurate assessment. Part of the reason I rarely advise brand new hobbyists. I know the odds of them taking good advice into practice is slim and they’ll either likely be out of the hobby entirely very soon, or lose interest and let their tank go.

The imagery of the water level in the display being 3” from the top is so vivid as I’ve seen it soooo many times. Not only in people I’ve sold corals and equipment to, but just random people (kids friends houses, friends of friends, ect) where there’s an aquarium of some kind.

The number of actual serious hobbyists that are essentially on a micro scale aquaculture level is absolutely minuscule compared to the overall hobby numbers entirely. That’s how companies like kent, Coralife, tetra, ect all stay in business. They’re providing the lions share of equipment to the hobby at the end of the day

 

[jda]

As I tie all of this back into the original question, what I see from the majority of long-term hobbyists with high end tanks, a good percentage of them do rely on Metal Halide lighting at a much higher clip than frontrunners and noobies. It is a shame that most of the people do not post because they have tanks that are truly inspirational, but they do it with older lighting, AC pumps, CaRx, Closed Loops or Tunze pumps and other things that are made to last and do last. They also have larger tanks usually with 180g and up. None of this is sexy compared to a brand new Red Sea Reefer with a clean sump, new apex, sleek lights, etc. Even if they did post, they get sick of fighting with the noobies. The disappear because they need nothing from the community.

If one of these more-common reefers (the ones that I see every day that I posted about above) were to log on and post about how their coral is thriving and they have no algae, then people would take it like they are doing it all right and their experience is equivalent to somebody who has had a TOTM quality reef for a decade. To be fair, their green star polyps, mushrooms and green palys are thriving... in water quality like sewage. However, when you dig in and see that they have no idea that carbonate and calcium need to be supplemented, which is why any stony corals died 5 years ago, and that their nitrates and phosphates are so high that algae cannot grow. This is how you get such wide-ranging opinions of success, but in actuality this is not really success. There is no such thing as a "line drive in the book" in reefing and some things truly are better than others. This is why I hate it when people say that "different things work for different people" or "there is no right or wrong way" - while technically true, the vast majority of the MOST successful people do more things similar than they do different. Most of the time, if you dig into the outliers, you see why they are outliers.