No love for MH?

[MTBake]

Shadowing is another personal preference. It really doesn't hurt the coral if it's in optimal settings. I've seen acros encrust down the stem of a frag plug, in the dark, and keep on encrusting till it hits light again.

 

[MnFish1]

I guess it affects sps the most. Like when the underside of a birdsnest colony or forest fire digi looks bland or even bald with hardly any polyps. That's shadowing. Halides seem to really light up the darker areas better than leds. T5's do a good job too. That seems to be the main downside to strictly leds for me. Maybe if there were a way to discreetly light the tank from the front too, that would be nice.

Thats how they look in the natural environment or am I incorrect? (on the underside). Thanks for the definition though - but is the coloring on the underside of coral natural?

 

[naterealbig]

Curious - if MH are 'the best' why do people need to add other lights to them. They should be enough. I would like an answer to this question - if you add enough LED (or turn them up enough - most people here seem to be using LED's at 30% ) can you mimic MH? But - I don't understand if MH (old fashioned) are 'the best' why people are adding other lights to them...Just a question... Especially your set up - where you're adding LEDs as well. It seems completely backward. this is not designed to be a critique - and if you like the look great - but why (otherwise)

I don't think this thread is about a particular group of users touting halides as "the best". They are another option, and do offer benefits that LEDs don't.

No - you cannot mimic a halide by "turning up" an led. There are portions of the spectrum that are missing, and the lux you get from halides is greater. To achieve the brightness of a halide, you would have to increase the output of LEDs to a PAR lever that would be unhealthy for most corals.

Some of the folks here (myself included) are going for a look that simply can't be achieved by halides alone. Those that are the most successful and satisfied with their displays, are the ones who are open-minded enough not subscribe to only one form of lighting. We should use the options we have, to get what we want. For metal halide users, it is simply a part of the equation. And, it's the reason people supplement their LEDs with t5s, supplement their t5s with LEDs, or supplement their metal halides with LEDs or t5s. [emoji4]

You've got it right. We don't "need" all of these things we are using - we are using the tools we have to achieve what we want.

 

[Reefs of Space]

Thats how they look in the natural environment or am I incorrect? (on the underside). Thanks for the definition though - but is the coloring on the underside of coral natural?

Not sure.. But I like the colored up parts of coral personally.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't think this thread is about a particular group off users touting halides as "the best". They are another option, and do offer benefits that LEDs don't offer.

Well the way I read it the thread was about people who liked LEDS (for whatever reason) - so I think that put MH users on a bit of a defensive.

No - you cannot mimic a halide by "turning up" an led. There are portions of the spectrum that are missing, and the lux you get from halides is greater. To achieve the brightness of a halide, you would have to increase the output of LEDs to a PAR lever that would be unhealthy for most corals.

Can you explain this? I understand the spectrum part - which part of the spectrum do you think is missing from LED's that MH provide (in the visible spectrum)? (if its about how things look) - if its about UV - There are UV LED's as well - perhaps not as strong. IDK. Just curious as to your rationale.

What I dont understand is the lux you get from halides is greater - and you'd have to increase LEDS to a PAR level that would be unhealthy for most corals. Where does that data come from? (honest question) - are Lux and Par dissociated from each other at some point? that suggests that PAR underestimates light output? I have heard this before - turn down LEDs - they are much stronger than other lights - that you cant measure with 'PAR' - didn't buy it - not sure I buy it now...

 

[naterealbig]

Serious question - what is wrong with 'shadowing'?

I don't think there is anything wrong with some shadowing. It's what adds depth to our displays. Without it, the look flat, and two dimensional. I think you will agree, that some LEDs cause enough shadowing that tissue in corals recede. This is not good, and yes, there should be color underneath a coral.

Some LEDs have addressed this by using reflectors or diffusers. Metal halides also minimize unhealthy amounts of shadowing, because of the design of their reflectors.

 

[naterealbig]

Well the way I read it the thread was about people who liked LEDS (for whatever reason) - so I think that put MH users on a bit of a defensive.

Can you explain this? I understand the spectrum part - which part of the spectrum do you think is missing from LED's that MH provide (in the visible spectrum)? (if its about how things look) - if its about UV - There are UV LED's as well - perhaps not as strong. IDK. Just curious as to your rationale.

What I dont understand is the lux you get from halides is greater - and you'd have to increase LEDS to a PAR level that would be unhealthy for most corals. Where does that data come from? (honest question) - are Lux and Par dissociated from each other at some point? that suggests that PAR underestimates light output? I have heard this before - turn down LEDs - they are much stronger than other lights - that you cant measure with 'PAR' - didn't buy it - not sure I buy it now...

You've got it backwards. The thread was started by people who own, wanted to discuss, and have found benefits from using halides. (An unfortunately forgotten technology within the trade). In some of these instances, the users switched back to halides from LEDs. I don't recall reading any posts in the thread however, disparaging LEDs or LED users. I don't think this is a battle.

Interestingly (and to some of your questions regarding my rationale), an enormous percentage of people new to the hobby are purchasing LEDs - and many have become frustrated. Unfortunately when you hand over complete spectrum and intensity control to a novice, it can be frustrating at the least, and deadly to tank inhabitants at the worst. One of the areas t5s and metal halides shine (pun intended). Buy a bulb (or combination) you like, put it on a timer, done.

My statement was not accurate regarding "missing" portions of the spectrum - it is peaks at different wavelengths (what I perceive to be) better with a halide that stimulate pigmentation and color rendition that can be tough to achieve with LEDs. This, as with most of the options in this hobby, are personal preference. A white led covers the entire visible spectrum, but there are huge peaks in the green and yellow wavelengths. Other colored LEDs only cover small bands of the visible spectrum.

Why don't you buy it?. Look at a tank with halides over it, and then look at an LED lit tank with the exact same par numbers. The halide lit tank is always brighter. I've never seen an exception to this, and ask any hobbyist that has used both LED and HID technologies. They will tell you the same thing. It's the reason so many hobbyists killed their corals when LED first came out. They set their LEDs based on their "brightness" with their baseline being their previously lit HID tanks. They were grossly overestimating their PAR values.

Have you ever run halides?

 

[MnFish1]

Why don't you buy it?. Look at a tank with halides over it, and then look at an LED lit tank with the exact same par numbers. The halide lit tank is always brighter.

I disagree. If the PAR value is the same - to me the 'brightness' looks the same - It may be my eyes - or I may not have a discerning eye - IDK - but I dont see a huge difference. Maybe its because I dont need or want to see a difference? IDK. The rest I agree with.

 

[naterealbig]

I disagree. If the PAR value is the same - to me the 'brightness' looks the same - It may be my eyes - or I may not have a discerning eye - IDK - but I dont see a huge difference. Maybe its because I dont need or want to see a difference? IDK. The rest I agree with.

Ah, PAR (photosythetically available radiation - the measure of photons hitting a surface within the photosynthetically usable range each second) and Lumens (photons emitted in the humanly visible spectrum - weighted based on the sensitivity of the human eye to different to different wavelengths), are not necessarily proportional - and are definitely not equal.

The scientific definitions explain while two light with the exact same par readings could be very different visually, from a brightness perspective. Or conversely, two lights with the same level of brightness could generate very different values of PAR.

Here's a good read on the topic. The application is different, but the physics behind it remain the same.

https://forevergreenindoors.com/blogs/news/86675143-lumens-vs-par

I will definitely agree that each person's perception - real and biased- can be very different, and perhaps we are arguing semantics [emoji4].... A lux meter (measuring to for lumens) is pretty cheap, and our discussion has my curiosity piqued.

For a quick test, I may grab one and check levels below my halide fixture and my brother's Radions. If I do I'll report my findings.

P.s. If I was going to use LED for my system, I would be using the new Orphek Atlantic fixtures. Largest array of unique wavelength LEDs, to include UV and also IR (an industry first) wavelengths.

 

[oreo54]

The halide lit tank is always brighter.

Which means it has more yellow/green than the LED's. Or just more "watts"..

 

[oreo54]

For a quick test, I may grab one and check levels below my halide fixture and my brother's Radions. If I do I'll report my findings.

Lux is a subset of "PAR" (PPF really) centered around 575nm..
One can estimate using lux as long as the fixture isn't err .extreme in blue and or red spectrum since much of it falls in Lux "target zone".
Better diodes and halides have about the same efficiency.. (100Lumens/watt)
Lumens being "area-less" LUX..

 

[naterealbig]

Lux is a subset of "PAR" (PPF really) centered around 575nm..
One can estimate using lux as long as the fixture isn't err .extreme in blue and or red spectrum since much of it falls in Lux "target zone".
Better diodes and halides have about the same efficiency.. (100Lumens/watt)
Lumens being "area-less" LUX..

Hi @oreo5457, thank you for the feedback and information here.

 

[DSC reef]

@MnFish1 I don't think this is a thread where people are arguing over what's best but rather what others prefer. On our new tank we decided to go halide and T5 with an XHO reefbrite. Why? Because they all offer something good not because I think one is superior over the other. We plan on a bit of tridacna in a 750xxl and were previously thinking of kessil but the cost upfront alone was discouraging. Personally I like the look of halides but I also have seen what leds can do.

 

[Jay Norris]

I definitely can see the LED supplementation, and there is nothing that I have seen that can replicate the fluorescence of a royal blue LED.

I want the pronounced pop that LEDs can produce, but with the complete spectrum of the halide bulbs. I'm looking for the best of both worlds - think daylight brightness and shimmer, but with some of the pop you can only get with all blues on an LED fixture.

The few very high end LED light fixtures are all full spectrum, and will grow any coral, just as well as a M/H light. The trouble with LED's is they are not plug and play like M/H's and T5's, but that is changing with the new programs that you can program into your lights.

 

[Jay Norris]

Abd just for the record, I am not anti-LED. I think they are a very good lighting solution, and I have used Radions with success. When halides are no longer viable, i am confident I will be happy with them.

There are a couple reasons I'm going with halides, and they are a little different than the reasoning for most. I could care less about the heat - I have always been able to manage it with a fan and ambient temperature. I have seen many successful displays with these systems, and let's be honest - I will be truly happy if I can achieve the colors and growth that vendors like Battle Corals and WWC have achieved with LEDs, with my halides.

First, you get an overall brightness from halides, that is simply unmatched with any other lighting source. For a given PAR, halides emit brighter light. Nothing "glows" like a tank lit with halides. Nothing.

The second, and probably more popular reason, is the complete spectrum that a halide bulb offers. LEDs are getting close, but not 100% there. This translates into color rendition, and color development in corals that can't always be achieved with some of the missing spectrum portions of LEDs.

Lastly, it's just simple. I think 99% of the problems people experience with LEDs are because they can't stop fiddling with them. I pouch some bulbs I like, put them on a timer, grow awesome corals, done.

I believe the Mitra's, Radion's, and Orpheks are all full spectrum, and as far as brightness and PAR, these LED lights will match any M/H light 400 watt and below, and if you use more LED lights you will even surpass the 400 watt lights.

 

[DSC reef]

I believe the Mitra's, Radion's, and Orpheks are all full spectrum, and as far as brightness and PAR, these LED lights will match any M/H light 400 watt and below, and if you use more LED lights you will even surpass the 400 watt lights.

I dont think anyone is arguing your point and we all get you love led lights. I have nothing against them. The upfront cost is a big turn off for us personally to provide the lighting needs we require. This really should not turn into another which is better debate. These are opinions. We plan on utilizing all sources with halide, T5 and led.

 

[Jay Norris]

Curious - are you using all of your lights on their maximum settings? - Many here would say that 'the more the better' is incorrect.

The more the better gives you the ability to space them out, thus giving you better coverage and a lot less shadowing. This is the main reason more people are using the Radion XR15's compared to their XR 30 lights. Same price, just better spread and less shadowing, example, people will use 6 XR 15's instead of 3 XR 30's, which when spaced out, gives you a better spread, and a lot less shadowing.

 

[dutch27]

My lack of love for halide is only due to heat issues. If we could find a way for them to not heat up tanks, they'd be the best thing out there. When I did run them, I had cooling fans on a controller, and still had to drop frozen bottles in the tank, with the a/c running. Was a PITA and made me always worry if I'd come home to an 83 degree tank cooking away.

IME, LED never gave me the color or growth I got from halide or T5. IMO T5 is the best balance of controlling heat and getting the color spectrum you want. But that disco-ball free halide shimmer can't be beat.

 

[DSC reef]

The more the better gives you the ability to space them out, thus giving you better coverage and a lot less shadowing. This is the main reason more people are using the Radion XR15's compared to their XR 30 lights. Same price, just better spread and less shadowing, example, people will use 6 XR 15's instead of 3 XR 30's, which when spaced out, gives you a better spread, and a lot less shadowing.

100 % agree

 

[Jay Norris]

I dont think anyone is arguing your point and we all get you love led lights. I have nothing against them. The upfront cost is a big turn off for us personally to provide the lighting needs we require. This really should not turn into another which is better debate. These are opinions. We plan on utilizing all sources with halide, T5 and led.

I totally agree with you on your points, all I was stating is the fact that LED's have caught up to the M/H lights and T5/s as far as spectrum and PAR,a s someone else was stating that LED's were not full spectrum lights as of now, and they had less PAR. Believe me, M/H and T5s are great lights, and they are what I used, along with VHO lamps for the last 3 or so decades, Also if I lived in a colder climate, I might still be using M/H, T5 combo light fixture. Their is no debating going on here as to which type of lighting is better, as I do now prefer the LED lighting for various reasons, and I am not trying to convince anyone to change their lighting systems.