No love for MH?

[MnFish1]

I think what people mean by mh being more natural is that it is a blended point light source, like the sun. Leds are single spectrum point light sources that can blend to a degree. Adding the diffuser seems to help out but then are you not just emulating a tube source?

Good point. But to me thats like saying lets say - keeping a 20 gallon reef tank in the back yard is also more 'natural' - because its outside - but its nothing like 'the ocean'

 

[oreo54]

Please note the above is really not practical atm since high power stable violet pump emitters are not currently available and blue phosphors have issues of degredation ..

future projection..
doesn't mean it isn't totally impractical. Well daylight balanced whites are available (added blue/cyan and deeper red phosphors. Getting back a bit to blue/white..

arguably "the best" Coral grow light..(below)
both 6500k..funny how it concentrates a lot of light in the "cyan" range in comparison..

 

[MnFish1]

Yes and I agree,
I like the ramping and cloudy settings and the things you can do with LEDs, but is it all mandatory or even necessary?

Probably not. My only feeling is that those that say MH is 'more natural' - I think are incorrect. Some things MH do may be 'more natural' - a lot of how they are used seem 'less natural'

 

[oreo54]

Good point. But to me thats like saying lets say - keeping a 20 gallon reef tank in the back yard is also more 'natural' - because its outside - but its nothing like 'the ocean'

Surface projections.. yea, the concept doesn't change much when designing a light source to start at a certain depth..
simple subtraction..
Still needs to be smooth:

 

[oreo54]

Probably not. My only feeling is that those that say MH is 'more natural' - I think are incorrect. Some things MH do may be 'more natural' - a lot of how they are used seem 'less natural'

for real world at depth spectrums..
http://spectra.1023world.net/
Browse "sun" items....

 

[oreo54]

Think "natural" arguments need to be sort of buried..
none of this is really "natural".....

 

[RCS82]

Probably not. My only feeling is that those that say MH is 'more natural' - I think are incorrect. Some things MH do may be 'more natural' - a lot of how they are used seem 'less natural'

My answer too was probably not. I'm not a lighting expert and would never claim to be but it is one of my favorite parts of reef keeping and I enjoy learning more about it. I love hearing the discussion and different opinions. On my tank in the last 3 years I have ran Kessils alone, then Kessils and T5s, then T5s and a Reefbrite, and now metal halide with the Reefbrite. My opinion is the metal halide is the most natural looking. I've never dove the south Pacific but have the Caribbean. So what is "natural" is up to each to interpret I guess.

 

[Jay Norris]

It is the non-sequitur nature of the argument that I do not understand... wanting to be as natural as possible with ramping and thunderstorms and lunar cycles, yet also choosing the most unnatural type of lighting as far as spectrum and how the photons enter the tank.

Why do you say LED lighting is the most unnatural form of lighting, as I can program any type of Spectrum and PAR I can imagine for having a healthy reef tank, also if I really wanted to mimic nature as close as possible as artificial lighting allows, I could run a program for a cloud pattern, and constantly change the spectrum and PAR through out the day. As far as I am concerned, their is only one light source that matters and that is the SUN at 6500k or so, and all else is only an artifcle light source that is man made. LED lighting is just as good as M/H lighting, or I would still be using M/H, with a combination of T5, or VHO, no matter the extra cost of changing bulbs and the extra cost of electricity need to chill my tank, and fish room.

 

[Jay Norris]

I ran the old rapid led kits that was a mimic of the radion a few years ago. Didn’t even last a year, because I tinkered too much. I’m NOT saying leds do t work I’m saying I tinkered too much and didn’t have good results so I switched back. I have considered giving them another try. I looked into the Orpheks as my first choice because I like the fact they are spread out more and a panel type. But they don’t have the greatest stateside assistance I hear. I also looked at reefbreeders for similar reasons and like the fact Logan is local and very helpful. I just say i like the Mitras too but don’t know anyone personally in my area using them. A few fellow reefers are using the radions and like them as well. I love the fact the kessils are somewhat idiot proof but don’t like the fact hey don’t produce much par in comparison.
If I ever switched it would most likely be to the reefbreeders or orpheks mostly because I could get away with 2 units and avoid some of the heavy upfront costs. Dropping 3k on leds is a whole lot of halide bulbs I can buy!!!
I think Jay stated a great fact and it’s one I’ve said for years, the biggest issue with leds isn’t so much their ability to grow anything. It’s our ability to constantly change them and mess stuff up. We do them a disservice for the most part.

Corey

Hi Corey, the one thing that really sold me on the Mitra's, is the fact they use a Parabolic reflector very similar to M/H light fixtures , which blends all the different LED colors like a M/H lamp. They don't use lenses or diffusers like the other LED brands do.

 

[oreo54]

and now metal halide with the Reefbrite. My opinion is the metal halide is the most natural looking. I've never dove the south Pacific but have the Caribbean. So what is "natural" is up to each to interpret I guess.

Errr. not to pick on it or anything but you have 2 different light sources to make the "natural" look..
kind of "slightly" changes the conclusion...

One "type" alone isn't enough.
Does that seem correct or are the reefbrights just "moonlighting"?

 

[RCS82]

Errr. not to pick on it or anything but you have 2 different light sources to make the "natural" look..
kind of "slightly" changes the conclusion...

One "type" alone isn't enough.
Does that seem correct or are the reefbrights just "moonlighting"?

Good call. The reefbrite is for morning and evening but it does overlap with the metal halides slightly. But when they are overlapped the reefbrite doesn't do much more than add a slightly bluer crispness to the 14k Phoenix's. The overall look doesn't change at all but it's only for a short overlap.

 

[jda]

I just use MH. Nothing else. No LED. No T5. They are just on/off for 10 hours. I would challenge anybody who has actually had a tank to show me how diverting any of these resources (wattage, money, etc.) to another source would make my tank better. I have tried. I have stacks of unused LED ranging from Black Box to Radions, T5s sitting unused. I don't believe in the "best of both worlds" paradigm either in life or in this hobby - I go all in, all the way, or don't do stuff. "Best of both worlds" did not work for Hannah Montana who was never quite a good enough pop star nor had a normal kids life - just middling at both. Rather than adding 200-300w of T5s, I will just add another halide and squeeze them closer together.

Oreo - you get a tank yet? Wondering if you opinions have changed with some tangible experience. With all of your internet knowledge, you could be really helpful with a few years of actual reefing. I am not trying to bash you any more than I already have, but just curious where you are today, really.

 

[oreo54]

Next time you have a legitimate question regarding light.. feel free to ask...
As to where I am right now.. figuring out the design of both fw and sw LED's for everyone's enjoyment
as well as actually helping people w/ real problems.
Here and other places..

Thanks for asking..

 

[topjimmy]

artificial constraint due to TECHNICAL limitations.. i.e what manf. give you..
this LED (not a recommendation JUST an example ) it technically equal or better, and at worst not much less 1)blended and 2) less spiky than any 6500k MH..
violet "pump" w/ RGB phosphors added..IF one could convince a manuf it was WORTH their time to "up" the blue phosphor level you'd have any K you would want ..and in one package.
https://www.ledsmagazine.com/articl...lor-packaged-leds-lights-japanese-fa-ade.html

Is that a single warm white?

 

[topjimmy]

Think "natural" arguments need to be sort of buried..
none of this is really "natural".....

I agree. I just can't stand the disco separated colors, maybe I am just more susceptible to seeing it. Regardless I don't care what someone puts over their tank. Use what you like, I've seen plenty of great tanks lit by all the different sources and combinations.

 

[Michael Gilbreath]

I used MH on my old 90gl but were i live now its going to be t5 and leds due to heat issue summer here is in the low 100s so would love MHs but just not in the cards

 

[jda]

Next time you have a legitimate question regarding light.. feel free to ask...
As to where I am right now.. figuring out the design of both fw and sw LED's for everyone's enjoyment
as well as actually helping people w/ real problems.
Here and other places..

Thanks for asking..

I don't have any issue with you. I do think that you could have some of the most helpful stuff if you had any real experience to go into your bag - that is why I asked and you seemed to indicate that you might have a tank in the future when I asked the last time. I also don't think that you would post some of the things that you would post if you had a few years of experience. I do wish that you would put something in your signature to let people know that you have never applied any of this over a reef tank.

 

[oreo54]

Don't think I ever said it wasn't "theoretical" or more correctly just facts.
But here is the catch..everyones skill levels are different.
Even w/ the "best" halides one could FAIL miserably, so tanks or not is are really relatively
relevent.
Like theoretical physics.. somebody needs to present the groundwork.

You wannt to call everything I said a hypothesis fine.. go prove it wrong yourself

I'll leave the proof for the techs..

Don't like theorticians..not my issue...
Don't like my spiky MH spectrums and believe its "daylight" not my issue
Don't understand a blue photon is a blue photon regardless of source, not my issue
You believe mh's are magic, not my issue.

You PUSH mh's more than I PUSH LED's I just try to keep the cr@p down

I'm at least sharing the playing field..
See the numerous posts I made about the 6500k Ushios???
Maybe the one about no love for rb/high k white led fixtures
Maybe the one saying one needs to stop saying 500w of MH's beats
200w of LED's because they are LEDs and ignore the huge output difference in photons..

 

[jda]

I don't push anything. I don't care what people use over their tank. Almost everything that I post is from actual experience is using this stuff, talking with biologists in the field, attending MACNA, etc. When I don't have experience with something, I try and say so since I believe that it is super important for people to know where the posts are coming from - I sometimes forget and I hate when I do this.

Everyones skill level is different. I agree complete. This is why it is so important to see what skill they have so that you can judge how to take their input.

Only people who don't have experience think that experience does not matter. Failing miserably is a great way to get really relatively relevant experience.

 

[oreo54]

I don't push anything. I don't care what people use over their tank. Almost everything that I post is from actual experience is using this stuff, talking with biologists in the field, attending MACNA, etc. When I don't have experience with something, I try and say so since I believe that it is super important for people to know where the posts are coming from - I sometimes forget and I hate when I do this.

Everyones skill level is different. I agree complete. This is why it is so important to see what skill they have so that you can judge how to take their input.

Only people who don't have experience think that experience does not matter. Failing miserably is a great way to get really relatively relevant experience.

you didn't "experience" everything out there now did you?
Even your "experience" is just a small set of possibilities..
Don't take yourself so serious.. I don't..

MH's, LED, TUBES, Sulfer plasma,...ect. can ALL be successful.


Point is why are there errr minute differences between them..

I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking
about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it;
but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in
numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory
kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have
scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced to the stage of science,
whatever the matter may be. -William Thomson, First Baron Kelvin, Scottish Mathematician and Physicist, 1824-1907.

LEDs and Reef Aquaria

Light-emitting diodes (LEDs) have, in the last ten years, revolutionized the way we think of lighting reef aquaria, yet how corals’ zooxanthellae photosynthetic responses to them is still a matter under investigation. Unfortunately, most manufacturers release the latest iteration of their products with little or no beta-testing (there are rare exceptions, of course.)

collectively "we" are the beta testers...but "we" also are the ones that need to key in where things could go.
https://reefs.com/magazine/selecting-the-best-led-lighting/

Basically saying MH's are magic and you need nothing else.. brings nothing to the table..
LED's don't work as well why? how does one make them better..?
By going back to the horse and buggy?
THEY also just worked, low maintenance and cheap...
I know that sounds a bit condescending but it was the easiest thing I could think of ATM..

I actually accept the fact that, in some ways yes MH's are easy. I don't accept the fact they will always be the best.
I don't accept the fact that LED's have some intrinsic quality that makes them inferior..

My point has never been to polish the t...but to make the thing not a t......
You should actually thank me..

The solid state nature, longevity of output (yes they still fade) crashing prices and ability to easily experiment is a GOOD THING..
Maybe messy in the short run but will benefit most...inc those "average reefers" w/ crappy fixtures" YOU see all the time..
On second thought they may be the ultimate benefactors.. unless of course you have some reason to keep them in horses..
Then again you might be able to pick up more cheap fixtures at flea markets ect..again eventually.

BTW: It's not just me.. and unlike you I've never implied one needs LEDs to become "elite" coral growers..

To compare LEDs and halides is almost like comparing LEDs to a little sun at home.

Just a quote I call BS..enjoy..

For fun...
https://global.kyocera.com/news/2018/0702_leda.html
Sorry, Japan only..

Kyocera's aquarium LED lighting will be available to the Japanese market in the middle of August in four types:

• • Marine Blue reproducing spectrum of sunlight at 2.5m below sea level
• • Aqua Blue reproducing spectrum of sunlight at 11m below sea level
• • Natural White reproducing similar spectrum of sunlight above ground
• • Deep Blue for ornamental purposes

Product Features
1. Lamps emitting light mimicking natural sunlight helps grow coral and water plants
By combining violet LEDs and RGB phosphor blending technology, Kyocera's high-color-rendering LEDs produce light extremely close to natural sunlight. By customizing the spectrum, it reproduces the light close to that of the natural habitats of corals and water plants at specific underwater depths.