No love for MH?

[biecacka]

He runs the 30’s I thought. Could be mistaken though but I will double check. I’m not arguing that your wrong or anyone else is right or anything. I’m only saying that the number of units needed on larger tanks tend to make the electric savings nill if any...that is all I’m saying.

Corey

 

[jda]

He is running xr30s. The photos are all over his threads. He also spoke at MACNA. His heaters also run more too.

 

[biecacka]

I believe he said that the electrical savings don’t exist for him. However, we cannot argue that he is growing the corals very impressive to say the least! There is NO argument in that. The biggest thing I take away from this is how he runs his leds at 100%. So few people do that and say you can’t. Now I’m sure it took him awhile to do it this way and he likes the spectrum for his eyes better but none the less he runs them at 100% and a few others that are great SPS keepers who run leds also do run theirs that high.

Corey

 

[Bpb]

His reason for changing wasn’t to save money or that he didn’t like his ushios. He had a temperature controller/chiller disaster while away from home that scared him into leds. Had nothing to do with saving on bulbs or electrocitu

 

[biecacka]

I know. His chiller caused a crash. I’m not saying hat was his reason. I’m saying he acknowledges the fact it wasn’t cheaper like people tend to think

Corey

 

[oreo54]

Are you all purposefully ignoring this statement??

I ran 1200 watts of halides for 10 hours before and had good growth – now I run roughly the same wattage of LEDs and get better growth on most corals

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/dr-joshi’s-500-gallon-sps-dominated-mixed-reef.2/

 

[Bpb]

I know. His chiller caused a crash. I’m not saying hat was his reason. I’m saying he acknowledges the fact it wasn’t cheaper like people tend to think

Corey

We are in agreement. I was just elaborating. For someone in Sanjays tax bracket, $8k on lights clearly isn’t that big a deal. If he even had to pay for them. I have heard specifically of some notable hobbyists who have been gifted multiple radions in exchange for favorable reviews on forums. Don’t ask me to name names that is tacky

 

[jda]

I am not ignoring it. I just know the whole story. That article is from three years ago, before Gen 4 upgrade and 10 units running at 100%. Heck, you did not even know that he was using xr30s. Have you ever spoken to him? He is around and involved. Ever seen a presentation? He gives a lot and answers a lot of questions. For those of us who actually know, we know. I only care about acropora and clams and I know that while some coral might be growing better, and even some acropora, I know about all of the losses and how they are doing in totality. Do you?

There are many hobbyists who have gotten free tech gear to write good reviews and shill. I got this offer with 22 high end lights, a few DC pump and a few flow pumps and I told them that I would only post what I truly saw but I would be fair. That is not what they wanted, so we agreed that I would not be a good fit on the "team." There are LFS and vendors on the "team" too... large coastal shops.

 

[oreo54]

I am not ignoring it. I just know the whole story. That article is from three years ago, before Gen 4 upgrade and 10 units running at 100%. Heck, you did not even know that he was using xr30s. Have you ever spoken to him? He is around and involved. Ever seen a presentation? He gives a lot and answers a lot of questions. For those of us who actually know, we know. I only care about acropora and clams and I know that while some coral might be growing better, and even some acropora, I know about all of the losses and how they are doing in totality. Do you?

There are many hobbyists who have gotten free tech gear to write good reviews and shill. I got this offer with 22 high end lights, a few DC pump and a few flow pumps and I told them that I would only post what I truly saw but I would be fair. That is not what they wanted, so we agreed that I would not be a good fit on the "team." There are LFS and vendors on the "team" too... large coastal shops.

I ran 1200 watts of halides for 10 hours before and had good growth – now I run roughly the same wattage of LEDs and get better growth on most corals

so besides wattage change.. does the second part not still apply??
since you ar so intimate.. a simple yes/no will do..

 

[A. grandis]

Oh man...
The excuse he had to change his halides for LEDs was because he was very traumatized and upset by the "fail" of the chiller. That was only a gas leak and was probably easy to repair as far as I know... I spoke with him many times about the issue... I told him that he could simply fix or buy a new chiller and use any electronic thermometer or 2 connected to the Apex to turn all lights off in case the temperature would went too high. That is the simplest way to deal with any problem related to temperature. He ignored such simple solution and got those LEDs. I'm not sure if indeed he had a deal on those new LEDs and how much. I personally think that if he didn't have a deal it wasn't smart of him cause he spent way too much money to change. Plus all the adaptation process... Urgh!
He complained to me and said the Acros had dead spots under them after using the LEDs and in one of the videos he said that he had a yellow coral (I think it's a Porites sp.) that was bright yellow under his halides, but under those LEDs it turned bad.
Remember... from 1 to 10 his satisfaction with those LEDs is 8. I'm sure the halides gives a 10!

 

[Bpb]

Well I hate to be old hat, But for those of us that fall below the six figure bracket, but still love the hobby, it’s just to me not economical to go with high end leds. For my 150 gallon I estimate $150 or so a year in bulb changes, and a negligible wattage difference. Being that my pendants and ballasts were completely free, I literally cannot come up with a single good reason to drop my 3-250 watt setup, in favor of 3-4 xr30’s. I cannot imagine the performance would be any better at all measurably, let alone $2400-3200 better

 

[oreo54]

He runs the 30’s I thought. Could be mistaken though but I will double check. I’m not arguing that your wrong or anyone else is right or anything. I’m only saying that the number of units needed on larger tanks tend to make the electric savings nill if any...that is all I’m saying.

Corey

AFAICT yes he started w 8 gen2 30's.. 140W each.
Added 2 gen 2 30's to add cover...so 1400W vs 1200w Mh's or so.
so now no chiller but probably more heating..

gen 4's are considerably stronger and more than likely more efficient
current premium LED's are pushing 140 lumens/watt vs 80-ish L/watt on the more or less moribund MH's efficiency..
t5's are still at least increasing in longevity if you include induction tubes.
YES I'm aware of lumens vs PAR or other more applicable measurements..but I take what I can get..

Induction lamps, in fact, last up to 100,000 hours, with the lamp producing 70% of its
light output at 60,000 hours. In other words, their rated life is 5-13 times longer than metal halide
(7,500 to 20,000 hours at 10 hours/start) and about seven times longer than T12HO
fluorescent (at 10 hours/start).
2. How efficient or energy saving is it?

While induction lamps can generate more lumens per watt compared to metal
halides (80 v. 70), it is not as efficient as T5’s that powers 100+ lumens per watt.

Too bad there are few "reef centric" phosphored choices..Think there is one..

I've never argued for electrical savings by using LED's ..esp. not in this application..
There certainly are specific cases where it occurs but it's not the be all end all type thing..
Outside of this, electrical savings are fairly well documented but of course there are other costs involved BUT THAT is a complete other story..

I ran 1200 watts of halides for 10 hours before and had good growth – now I run roughly the same wattage of LEDs and get better growth on most corals

for A. Grandis..
Win some..lose some..

 

[DogsRule]

I'll just respond to the OP, incase anyone is thinking about using MH & might be put off by too much tech info.
Got about 22 years in this hobby & have seen/ tried all the available lighting options in that time period. Started out with 250 wt 6.5K Iwasaki MH bulbs- anyone remember those? Wow they were so yellow, but could grow anything. Added VHO actinics to lessen the yellow.
Upgraded tanks & then XM bulbs were popular, so ran the 10Ks again with VHO actinics. Loved that combination, but T5s were taking off at that time, so ditched the VHOs for T5 actinic- the T5s didn't come close to producing the actinic pop of VHO. Sure the bulbs lasted longer, used less power & ran slightly cooler, but I sold them & went back to MH/VHO. Ran that setup for a few years & then relocated, so just sold entire setup ( should have kept my 24" Gigas Clam had I known they'd no longer be available). That was 2010 & LED lighting was becoming the next big thing in lighting.
After moving & I stayed tank free for 2 years. I then decided that I was done with reef tanks & would be happy with wild Discus & a FW planted tank. That lasted for about 3 years, before the reef bug nipped me again.
I kidded myself that I could keep the FW tanks & just add a small 29 Biocube to give me the reef fix a craved. The Biocube (purchased used) had a "Steve's LED" fixture for lighting & I was really impressed with the intensity/flexibility of the lighting fixture. What I couldn't get used to though was the "fake" appearance of the corals/fish even when running high white light LEDs. I also observed the shading effect on the few SPS corals I had.
I upgraded to a corner 92G RR tank & decided to go back to what I knew/ really liked, which was MH. What I didn't realize, was how many MH bulbs/ballasts/reflectors were no longer available.
I ended up lighting that tank with a single 250 wt 14K Hamilton in a Reefoptix II reflector on a reeflux ballast & was so happy with the growth/color/ natural look, that I decided I needed a larger tank.
My 210 is currently lit by 3 x 250wt SE 14K Hamiltons on Icecap/reeflux ballasts. 2 lights have Reefoptix II reflectors-couldn't find a third, so middle light has a horticultural reflector- works pretty good. I do use a DIY 60wt blue LED for dawn/dusk lighting, but no need to run it when the MHs are on, as plenty of actinic pop from the 14k IMO. Tank has been running for 4 months & all corals, clams & anemones are thriving- so yeah still plenty of love for Metal Halides. So far, no chiller needed, as the 2 Icecap variable speed fans can keep the tank below 82 (that is another thing that has changed in my time away from hobby, as I see 78 degrees is now popular, but that is another topic).
I just wish we knew bulb manufacturers will keep producing. Hate having to feel like I need to stockpile bulbs & keep a spare ballast around.

 

[Bpb]

I just wish we knew bulb manufacturers will keep producing. Hate having to feel like I need to stockpile bulbs & keep a spare ballast around.

Amen to that. Every single sale event that happens I buy 2-3 MH bulbs just to keep my stock pile growing because they will be unavailable one day eventually I am convinced and I’d like to have some years in reserve when that happens. I currently have 10 spares. I’ll keep picking up a couple at a time as they go on sale

 

[oreo54]

What I couldn't get used to though was the "fake" appearance of the corals/fish even when running high white light LEDs.

more than likely due to really poor CRI in the whites..and/or really high K values.
ONE DEFINITE area in need of improvement in LED (think of the first ugly "daylight" florescent).
Big advantage of T5's/MH's is the use of blue phosphors with a much larger spread of wavelengths than the royal blue pumps w/ yellow phosphor LED whites..
even royal blue/blue mix LED's are weak in some common wavelengths in other light types..

Just add some 6500k luxeon "fresh fish" COB's..no more artificial look.

Nothing you can buy but for fun..High CRI white Kyocera diodes and royal blue.
https://www.eneltec-led.com/news/kyocera-developed-a-full-spectrum-led-aquarium-lighting.html

 

[A. grandis]

I don't think halides will fall out of stock/production.
It will actually increase in popularity as we can already tell in this forum.
Halide technology is improving too and will continue to improve. They won't invest in improvements if it won't sell.
They know that many of us, including professionals from public aquariums, can't substitute halides for many applications.
Sales are most likely increasing and it will continue to increase IMO.
VHOs will become more popular too, I think... Results matter!

 

[oreo54]

https://markets.businessinsider.com...-expected-to-grow-at-a-cagr-of-8-4-1027840062

Are you sure about that?
I know, just one market but...
I'm curious as to what improvements?

 

[biecacka]

10 g4 Radions on Sanjay tank as of now I think, here is no doubt they work. I myself looked at switching to orpheks about a year ago. But I love my halides. I ran the rapidled kits that were similar in layout to Radions a few years ago, I tried them and had little luck with them. But I will also admit I didn’t know much about them and was always tinkering with the spectrum, too many choices for me. I like to plug and play and forget about it.
But that’s just me....


Corey

 

[oreo54]

I don't think halides will fall out of stock/production.
It will actually increase in popularity as we can already tell in this forum.
Halide technology is improving too and will continue to improve. They won't invest in improvements if it won't sell.
They know that many of us, including professionals from public aquariums, can't substitute halides for many applications.
Sales are most likely increasing and it will continue to increase IMO.
VHOs will become more popular too, I think... Results matter!

UPON further review.. Yea Mh market seems fine, though growth apparently is by cannabalizing on similar tech.. i.e HPS and Mercury vapor lamps..If any wants to confirm it there is a $2000 report you can buy..
https://www.marketwatch.com/press-r...ecast-to-2025-market-reports-world-2019-06-17

 

[DogsRule]

What are you guys doing with old bulbs these days? In the past I always kept 1 or 2 around, incase of a bulb failure or breakage while cleaning. The remainder, I was always able to give to other hobbyists for lighting fuges,frag tanks or maybe someone just wanted to try a different brand of bulb/ K rating. I believe, I am the only hobbyist in my area still using MH, so those options are out.