No love for MH?

[TheGreatWave]

I don't care for the look of MH fixtures either (or most other light fixtures for that matter), but they can be housed in a canopy like other lights. I've always run my MHs about 6-7" above the water surface for this reason. I live in Florida & the new 210 gallon reef evaporates 20 gallons a week compared to the 92 gallon that evaporated 10 gallons. I'm fine with that, as I've gone from a single 250 watt bulb to three 250 watt bulbs, but only doubled the evaporation rate. Haven't noticed any increase in the house AC running & the tank is in the living room. I consider evaporation a positive, as it allows me to dose more kalk via top off

Showing 750 watts over a mediocre softie tank is not helping your case. Thats just insane.

 

[TheGreatWave]

Have a good day.

 

[Bpb]

Showing 750 watts over a mediocre softie tank is not helping your case. Thats just insane.

Wow. Now who’s the bully. I’ve come across as crass and maybe a tad unprofessional sometimes but I’ve never insulted someone’s tank

I’ve shared my tank a ton. And happily
Share often, but it’s not fair to this argument as I’m only about 4 months into metal halide use on this tank. Half the growth I’ve enjoyed to this point was from t5’s. Though I can say objectively I’ve had more growth in the last 4 months than I’ve had in the last year prior, without any change in husbandry or nutrients. It is what it is. I’ll also objectively say I preferred my color under t5’s. And I also EXPECTED that to be the case. I wanted to improve my growth. I have no doubt that my acros would look as good or better immediately in a t5 tank. Just enjoying faster growth now, and 1/2 the cost in bulb changes (2@$44 a piece annually vs 8@$24 a piece annually)

 

[DogsRule]

Showing 750 watts over a mediocre softie tank is not helping your case. Thats just insane.

The tank is probably 50% SPS & maybe you didn't see the clams either? Not looking to get compliments on the reef or my choice of corals, as this tank has only been running 4 months (you'd see that in my 1st post in this thread-did you read that far back?), but thanks for your feedback- even though my reply was in no way directed at you. The reason for the picture of the entire setup, was to show MHs can be housed in regular aquarium furniture, just like any other light setup. If you'd like to see an up close video of all the SPS, clams & "mediocre softies" feel free to PM me.

 

[DogsRule]

Here are mine. Beat it if you can:
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmEPiBrD

Great pics. Question, the Derasa (I think going by shell form) 1st pic top right - is the ridge on the shell from when you purchased clam & added to your reef? Looks like the clam made a huge growth spurt at that time, whatever the change of conditions. Beautiful corals & clams- thanks for sharing

 

[oreo54]

In one sense this is true: LEDs are cool to the touch because they generally don't produce heat in the form of infrared (IR) radiation (unless of course they are IR LEDs).
IR radiation heats the enclosures and surroundings of incandescent bulbs and other sources, making them hot to the touch. The absence of IR radiation allows LED fixtures to be positioned in locations where heating from conventional sources would cause a particular problem e.g. illuminating food or textiles.
However, crucially, heat is produced within the LED device itself, due to the inefficiency of the semiconductor processes that generate light. The wall-plug efficiency (optical power out divided by electrical power in) of LED packages is typically in the region of 5-40%, meaning that somewhere between 60 and 95% of the input power is lost as heat.
(not linked)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
There are several schemes used to partition the infrared spectrum. ISO 20473, for example, defines near-infrared radiation as electromagnetic radiation with wavelengths ranging from 780 nm to 3.0 μm (ISO 2007). Meanwhile, the CIE divides this into IR-A (780 nm to 1.4 μm) and IR-B (1.4 μm to 3.0 μ), while noting that the borders of near-infrared “necessarily vary with the application (e.g., including meteorology, photochemistry, optical design, thermal physics, etc.)” (CIE 2016).
(link below)

https://www.ies.org/fires/the-science-of-near-infrared-lighting-fact-or-fiction/
Just thought it was interesting..

IR is not where the heat comes from..and the difference is somewhat important..
Any heat is from resistance and high energy photons (not IR in not IR diodes) interacting w/ matter..

 

[jda]

Right, non-IR LEDs still get hot. According to Tullio, the heat will be the same with any light source watt-for-watt interacting with matter if IR was not a factor (of course this is fantasy, but let's pretend)... which is why MH would still get warm, T5s get warm and LEDs get warm too. The smaller LEDs can get hotter since they have less area to spread the heat out over (thank goodness for heat sink, right?), then the smaller MH gas chambers and then T5s have quite large areas... same heat, different areas for dispersion.

The IR diodes in a Atlantik v4 do put out a pretty good amount of heat... but this exactly what they are made to do. They are 770nm, I think?

DogsRule - I got that huge deresa from a tank that needed to rehome it. It does not fit in a 5g bucket. They can all grow quite quickly and in large bursts under good conditions.

 

[WVNed]

Thank You @jda for the help
1432 watts (4 Hamilton 250 w 20ks + 8 T-5s)

It should have water in it but I had a bought with shingles on my head and it has shut me down for 3 weeks now.

 

[oreo54]

the heat will be the same with any light source watt-for-watt

No..................Not as I understand it...

In this respect efficient LEDs are clearly well ahead of conventional lamps. While energy conversion efficiency of incandescent lamps, for example, is between 10% and 20%, very efficient LEDs at present achieve values between 40% and 50%. Nevertheless, this is still »only« 40 – 50%, so 50% to 60% of the power is »lost« as heat.

Point is for the sake of argument incandescents @ 10% efficiency create 90% heat per watt.
LED's say 50% heat per watt..

Orpheks were 850nm-ish BUT might have switched.. It was a poor choice to begin with.
they don't think so.
https://orphek.com/infrared-penetration-water-emerson-effect-orphek-atlantik-v4-new-spectrum/
In fairness.. just my gut..
From the orig German paper..

Theory:
Infrared light appears to play a role in the conversion of coral in synthesis and oxidation. However, there is still no proof of this.
However, it is proven in higher algae and tangs.
There is enough literature on the internet for this.
950Nm does not seem to matter due to the water penetration.
ADDENDUM from 24.07.2017
The following pdf explains in short steps the effect of infrared light around 850 Nm (nanometers) on corals.
In particular, Acropora.
Infrared probably has little effect on soft and coral LPS.
But what happens at low tide is uncertain.

GOING to EXTREMES..

In their experiments, the researchers reduced the LED’s input power to just 30 picowatts and measured an output of 69 picowatts of light - an efficiency of 230%. The physical mechanisms worked the same as with any LED: when excited by the applied voltage, electrons and holes have a certain probability of generating photons. The researchers didn’t try to increase this probability, as some previous research has focused on, but instead took advantage of small amounts of excess heat to emit more power than consumed. This heat arises from vibrations in the device’s atomic lattice, which occur due to entropy.

This light-emitting process cools the LED slightly, making it operate similar to a thermoelectric cooler. Although the cooling is insufficient to provide practical cooling at room temperature, it could potentially be used for designing lights that don’t generate heat.

fun huh..
https://phys.org/news/2012-03-efficiency.html

 

[A. grandis]

How many times do I have to say... results is what we should look for and what actually counts in reality.
Some can bring lots of abstract info with fancy graphics and links to prove their theories.
Theories and articles are good only if you have your hands wet to apply and understand why things are happening!!!
Results will be the final word, period!
That said, if the results from any LEDs is what you like, go ahead, stick with it.
Halides/ T5s are what have most of the natural light properties for the needs of corals, clams, zoas, like the sun, period.
I like those type of results.
Therefore Halides and T5s are the best artificial lights over a reef system IMO!
Everyone has different opinions...
To try to prove any LED better than any halides is simply waste of time.
They are not the same and will never deliver the same qualities of light!!!!
Bottom line is: if you've seen tanks lit by halides and by LEDs simply choose the type of results you like.
If you never saw any system with metal halides over it and only with LEDs, then you can't judge!
If you don't have any experiences with any of the 2 you shouldn't write anything until you test for yourself and become a real aquarist.
I bet some people here don't even have a system running and are just playing internet. Your hobby is forum, not a reef tank!

 

[oreo54]

My hobby is knowledge.. Abstract or concrete.. Makes no difference..

They are not the same and will never deliver the same qualities of light!!!!

That is an opinion, not a fact..

Halides/ T5s are what have most of the natural light properties for the needs of corals, clams, zoas, like the sun, period.

You have eyes right??
How is this "natural"??

Or this:

Ocean.. err "natural" light..
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...sphere-contributions-The-black_fig1_259873923

 

[A. grandis]

With all the respect Oreo. This is a reef tank forum, not a "knowledge" forum.
Maybe you should find a "knowledge" forum?
Here is to illustrate and try to help you with some applicable knowledge:

 

[A. grandis]

My hobby is knowledge.. Abstract or concrete.. Makes no difference..

Makes difference when we see the application over a reef system!

That is an opinion, not a fact..

All 3 types of the most common artificial light discussed among us aquarists have different qualities. Please see Tullio's video!

You have eyes right??
How is this "natural"??

Halides/ T5s are what have most of the natural light properties for the needs of corals, clams, zoas, like the sun, period.
I like those type of results.

Good night, Oreo.

 

[oreo54]

Yes he uses charts...Not sure you watched it...Start at 45...use reading comprehension.

 

[BoSalman]

Just recently i switched from LEDS to T5/LEDS... and then 10 days ago i went to MH/T5...

Now i can say that i enjoy my tank! never looking back for sure!

Debating about which is best is never going to land somewhere, but I'm glad i went back to MH after all these years..

 

[A. grandis]

Yes he uses charts...Not sure you watched it...Start at 45...use reading comprehension.

Yes, good.
That way it should be easy for you to understand what he is talking in regards to the differences in qualities/properties/efficacy/application of light over a reef system.
I need to sleep man. LOL.
Good nite to all.

 

[jda]

People without experience think that they don't need it... been that way since the beginning of time. They are usually young. Everybody else disagrees. They are usually on the other side when they finally see what the more experienced were talking about. Nobody hires a CEO because they read a few books from Jack Welch or Steve Jobs, even if the guy applying thinks that he is ready.

I am OK with Tullio on this one. Paramount, he seems to know his stuff both academically and with actual experience. Second, it lines up with what I learned in Engineering school. Third, I don't really care that much anyway. LEDs get hot... they will burn you... the fixtures need IR in the future so they will get even hotter over our tanks.

Some of my posts got deleted for being a bully, even though I never tore apart somebody's tank. It also deleted an album of my own photos that shows some of where I get my opinions an experience. Say what you want about me, but I have at least earned my opinions and knowledge by having actual skin the game and doing what I think is an OK job:
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmEPiBrD

 

[fredk]

When we are young, we lack the experience to recognize what we don't know. When we are old, our experience blinds us to what has changed and what we do not know.

If "closest to full spectrum light" were the goal, we would all still be using Iwasaki's. Nobody does.

All three light sources work and have advantages and disadvantages. Pick what you are comfortable with.

Don't worry,
Be happy.

 

[maroun.c]

Some of my posts got deleted for being a bully, even though I never tore apart somebody's tank. It also deleted an album of my own photos that shows some of where I get my opinions an experience. Say what you want about me, but I have at least earned my opinions and knowledge by having actual skin the game and doing what I think is an OK job:
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmEPiBrD

Appologies for deleting that part jda, the few posts that were deleted contained personal attacks from few members and included insults that didn't match with the family friendly atmosphere we thrive to keep on R2R. Needless to say that your contribution and info on this thread and topic are very much appreciated.
MH VS LED threads tend to heat up more than halides do, so lets keep the discussion informative and friendly

 

[maroun.c]

I ran my 400G DT with halides and T5s since 2010 then around 2 years back it got difficult to get T5s here and I wanted to get the crazy phophoresence effect that I lacked so around 2-3 years back I switched the T5s with radions. and still run 3 250 W MH in mumenbright pendants as main lights.
I run my DT as said above and its linked to a nano cube with LED and 3 frag tanks all with different LEDs. I also run another separate tank with Radion G4.
This allows me to compare more apple to apple as water quality is basically the same, flow is different from one tank to another but not really far from each other on the SPS tanks...
few observations:
-Electricity consumption, no real advantage to LEDs VS halides in my case.
I live in lebanon which is quite moderate weather. I need to heat the tank with 3600W of heaters for around 4 months every year so the MH do help and give the heaters a break.
in summer time when halides are on chillers work extra time but that's only 2-3 months so overall they break even.
-growth and colors. DT with halides has much much better growth than the frag tanks. all my friends with LED only tanks are surprised with how bright the tank looks overall even when some of their tanks are more lit (whatt to whatt comparison)
-Color rendition Halides wins it as the colors are truer to the eyes. under blue LEDs most sps coclors arent even visible. JDA posted a set of pics with a basic mobile phone under halides and those looked great, I'll challenge others to take visible pics of corals under blue LED without using filters even with the newest cameras. I'm good with photoshop ain picture taking and last week struggled with a set of pics taken under blue LEDs where I couldn'tcorrect the blue cast even though they were shot in raw.
-LEDs have a slik look for open top tanks but again you can get creative with a nice cabinet and have it match your furniture and it'll hide the ugly looking halides.
-LEds are clearly the wow effect in that crazy phosphorescent look to the tank and many people are impressed from this. to me it is of course nice to look at but a few minutes alter I just feel like turning on the whites and seeing the true colors of my tank and corals.