No love for MH?

[oreo54]

You know.. I really..really..really tried to stay away from this pssing match BUT...

Color rendition Halides wins it as the colors are truer to the eyes. under blue LEDs most sps colors aren't even visible.

That is ridiculous statement.

Only compares a "choice" in LED color not what LED can "do".. w/ the right diodes..or fixture.
Markets sell to what people want, right or wrong..blue pop led's sell right or wrong.
People LIKE different things.. no right or wrong THAT includes MH's though funny how many are MH/T5 or MH/led..
but I digress..

You want "real looking" LED fixtures.. tell the manuf..

Why don't you get it's mostly (hedging bets) NOT the tech but the implementation......

Some like jda think there are INSURMOUNTABLE hurdles. I don't
Really the only difference..

Manuf. threw in sub standard high k whites and royal blue and said.. There a metal halide..
Even I thought that was stupid..
Just look at the charts like Tuillo does..

BTW you can't buy the whites used below..so look at is as "Looking forward"..
Maybe you think it sucks.. but one thing it looks is more.....er...natural
No need to comment on species.. wasn't the point and really more of a diversion.
It's one test tank.

so carry on..use what you like..That's what people do..

https://reefbuilders.com/2018/04/23/kyocera-will-join-aquarium-led-business-soon/

funny thing is they built specific spectrums to NATURALLY match specific depths..which means quenching most
orange to red spectrum..and most UV.
yea yea IR.. juries still out on that one

Bet most people in the US wouldn't buy them..
just look at the charts..
NOW long term effects.. Ask the Japanese..

 

[DogsRule]

Appologies for deleting that part jda, the few posts that were deleted contained personal attacks from few members and included insults that didn't match with the family friendly atmosphere we thrive to keep on R2R. Needless to say that your contribution and info on this thread and topic are very much appreciated.
MH VS LED threads tend to heat up more than halides do, so lets keep the discussion informative and friendly

I would like to apologize for the crude post ( thankfully you deleted) I made, that was aimed at a certain individual. I shouldn't have reacted in that manner & thought it only right to let you know I was in the wrong. Best regards.

 

[jda]

Why do you misrepresent what I say? I don't think that anything is insurmountable, only that it won't likely happen. It has been MORE THAN TEN YEARS, so how much longer do fools suffer the "next generation" of promises of improvement? Also, if the hurdles are overcome, would the product probably won't be any cheaper or better. Besides, what do I care if it is not available to use now. Promise, charts from armchair quarterbacks and theory don't light reefs.

I am imagining if you watched a video on people running hurdles, or just reading about it.

Most corals in this hobby are collected and grow at depths obtainable in one breath. When we were in the coral sea, the guys collected with masks and most of the time they could touch the bottom. You should be able to search and find all that you want on this. The whole "blue is where the corals come from" is as old and dead as "they save power." Rebreathers and any scuba gear is saved for fish which get MUCH more money wholesale. You should know this. Most species will grow deeper, but they don't grow as fast, are not as colorful and usually thinner branched and more brittle - any Biologist in the South Pacific will tell you this (well, ours did anyway). They collect from shallow water and then house the cuttings in troughs under sunlight.

SuperCool is more of a nano light and it is expensive. You would need 2 or 3 to light a normal 24x24 area. I have a friend who is always thinking that the next big thing is "it" and he had to have them. They did look good, but had no punch and the were too point-source without any reflector use. There is a reason that they did not take off.

I agree that that unit might not sell very well. I would not be shocked if it got compared to a Kessil with a $1050 price tag. If it indeed like a SuperCool, then you might need one per foot of reef tank... not much of a value add.

I hope that Kyocera is successful. If they are not, will they just be another bunch of fools that did not do it right even though they could have? Is there even any chance that as every new player in the market suffers the fate of the old, that people start to watch the same game that others of us are watching... that we probably have what we have? Oreo - if you are so sure, then build a product or start a tank and show everybody. Get in the game somehow. Get some credibility. Do something. Anything. You always complain about how somebody or some manufacturer did something wrong, but you are doing nothing.

 

[oreo54]

Kyocera used a violet pump and phosphors, red,green,blue.. sound familiar?
violet pump high cri emitters can't "beat" the current LED's like 160 Lumens per watt of cheap-ish LEDs.
though in "PAR" terms it's not as bad as it sounds..

If they are not, will they just be another bunch of fools that did not do it right even though they could have?

Oh come on.. they built what they wanted to.. One of the most "natural" imitations of the ocean at depth..using solid state light.
The only foolish part would be not realizing people like to be tricked..

Stop whining on what I do or don't do...
Industry does what they want anyways..

It's people like me that, hopefully, make people and companies aware ....helping everyone but "one trick pony" people.. Even if it's a good pony..
I've built and helped many people build freshwater leds..

Reef lighting is too err. dogmatic..and too many unknowns.. but physics and biology are just that.
One can see things w/ charts and papers, and others.. just like Turillo said..




My help and my private communications w/ industry and reefers is frankly.. none of your business.

Yea I "do stuff"...


but I will build you one.. w/ your $'s..pick a MH and I'll design it for you in LED's. it's not rocket science..

I know your gripes. but it won't change anything.
I'm too old and stubborn for that..and don't really handle stifling free speech well..

you have engineers and you have theoretical physicists.. big world..


funny thing.. AFAICT I've never told anyone what they should or shouldn't do..on a
personal basis... but it does give me a chance on catching up on my Botany degree..
Photosynthesis is fun..
This is what I do best though..

 

[jda]

it's not rocket science..

It probably is a lot more like rocket science than you think. Most every major LED company has admitted to trying to copy a popular MH bulb or two. They have all failed. If you are better than them and crack the code, then there is a few bucks to be made. I guess in the end, it is easier to second guess the play calls than to get some skin into the game.

 

[oreo54]

It probably is a lot more like rocket science than you think. Most every major LED company has admitted to trying to copy a popular MH bulb or two. They have all failed. If you are better than them and crack the code, then there is a few bucks to be made. I guess in the end, it is easier to second guess the play calls than to get some skin into the game.

They are lying..or it was a long time ago..or it was cost prohibitive.
Having to sell $1000 one trick pony LED light is not really good capitalism
no the LED "money" is in the programming ect (or spin).. not the diodes..
Try to convince SORRA to phosphor for a reef light.. good luck w/ that..


we should agree to not really converse.. It's really pointless.

 

[MnFish1]

To those thinking that MH is taking over again from LED (or vice versa) - check out the reviews of lighting on BRS. If you look at the top 5 MH fixtures (on the site) - there are about 6 total reviews. On the Radion G4 - there are 33 reviews. Hydra 26 has 32 reviews, Hydra Prime has 42 reviews. Kessil Tuna blue has 90 reviews. Now - none of this means much and some of the reviews on the LEDS are poor (dont last, problems programming, etc) - there are also some negatives on the MH. Just saying I don't see a groundswell to MH - based on at least this data.

 

[Aheinz]

For me never went with t5's or mh, as I got in and went led, the heat coming off of them for me was a big downside because my tank is in my room, with a computer that runs as well as a reptile tank, and sometimes the combo means very stuffy room and iblike the minimalist look leds can give off

 

[biecacka]

Oreo, are you suggesting that an led unit can be built to mimic say a radium? Which manufacture has the closest spectrum to that bulb as of now? How much would you think it would cost to build one properly?

Thank you

Corey

 

[Oldreefer44]

Humorous to me. Have had all three lighting types and have settled on V4's. Have had varying degrees of success with all three but I don't know how one is able to separate lighting from water quality, movement etc. in evaluating just how much difference their lighting makes in the overall success of their tank. Seen way too many beautiful tanks, large and small, with all three lighting types to say one is really better than the other.
Like every other product, it is human nature to defend whatever we have chosen as validation for it. Nothing seems to bring out aggression like product choice. Like someone else said. Make your choice and be happy.

 

[Bpb]

To those thinking that MH is taking over again from LED (or vice versa) - check out the reviews of lighting on BRS. If you look at the top 5 MH fixtures (on the site) - there are about 6 total reviews. On the Radion G4 - there are 33 reviews. Hydra 26 has 32 reviews, Hydra Prime has 42 reviews. Kessil Tuna blue has 90 reviews. Now - none of this means much and some of the reviews on the LEDS are poor (dont last, problems programming, etc) - there are also some negatives on the MH. Just saying I don't see a groundswell to MH - based on at least this data.

There’s layers to that. Much as others and I would disagree and discredit the fact you present (which believe me, I do, as I purchase and use what I believe to be the most effective, not the most popular), there is some merit to it. The hobby doesn’t start and stop with what BRS says. They have some decent info, but at the end of the day, much of it is heavily weighted toward what they’re trying to move off the shelves. And I won’t fault them for that at all.

But they’re a pretty big part of the hobby as a very visible and interactive medium and source of information and products. They have a significant influence on what is hot and what is not. Not the final say, but a loud voice for sure. A company like that will heavily promote what people are interested in and what flies off the shelves. Compounded by the fact that what they promote will continue to fly off the shelves. Way of the world.

Makes no difference to me. I’ll continue to use what I like regardless what is popular. What I like happens to also be the most affordable option. The fact that I believe it to be the most effective also is just a plus.

 

[jda]

Numbers are somewhat subjective, of course. You could tell when people were running from MH with CraigsList and forums littered with nice stuff for pennies on the dollar... new bulbs for $5-10, m80 ballasts for $20 bucks, PFO Ballasts (holy grail to some) for $30-40, etc. Some manufacturers stopped making stuff like Phoenix 14k, AquaMedic, etc. Then it stopped a few years later, much to my disappointment since I really enjoyed stocking up on the quality used stuff. PEC started making 14k bulbs again since the demand was still there. Then, there is what I consider an upswing where used equipment commands a pretty penny for individual pieces (custom fixtures are still hard to sell), more companies investing and selling MH (reefbrite), new offerings of ballasts and bulbs from many different companies, etc. IMO, we are still in this upswing. I had to pay near retail for some used equipment not too long ago... been years since that happened. Do the numbers compare to other tech, who knows...but I am happy that Hamilton, Giesemann, RB, etc are doing very well so that there is no risk of this stuff being unavailable anytime soon.

Of course, just anecdotes that mean nothing, but if you were around when the exodus happened, you can tell that it is different now.

 

[120reefkeeper]

https://media.giphy.com/media/tFK8urY6XHj2w/giphy.gif

 

[MnFish1]

There’s layers to that. Much as others and I would disagree and discredit the fact you present (which believe me, I do, as I purchase and use what I believe to be the most effective, not the most popular), there is some merit to it. The hobby doesn’t start and stop with what BRS says. They have some decent info, but at the end of the day, much of it is heavily weighted toward what they’re trying to move off the shelves. And I won’t fault them for that at all.

But they’re a pretty big part of the hobby as a very visible and interactive medium and source of information and products. They have a significant influence on what is hot and what is not. Not the final say, but a loud voice for sure. A company like that will heavily promote what people are interested in and what flies off the shelves. Compounded by the fact that what they promote will continue to fly off the shelves. Way of the world.

Makes no difference to me. I’ll continue to use what I like regardless what is popular. What I like happens to also be the most affordable option. The fact that I believe it to be the most effective also is just a plus.

Right - and I agree with you - it makes no difference to me either - Just for the sake of discussion On Marine Depot comparing all of the Radion fixtures (not any other LED's) and all the MH and MH T5 combinations (all brands) - its like 2:1. I didnt have the time - or the reason to go through all of the LED lights to see the reviews. BTW - just so you understand this was not BRS reviewing - it was consumers that bought the light and gave positive and negative reviews - (Percentage wise - both were the same positive./negative from what I could estimate - though I didnt calculate them).

My post was only to address the comments I heard several times that MH is taking over from LED - I don't see that on the sites I look at - though as JDA says - different areas of the country and different reefers may use more of one type or another. I have used both - I like both - I dont see much difference, but I understand some people swear by their MH (and their LED)

 

[Bpb]

Right - and I agree with you - it makes no difference to me either - Just for the sake of discussion On Marine Depot comparing all of the Radion fixtures (not any other LED's) and all the MH and MH T5 combinations (all brands) - its like 2:1. I didnt have the time - or the reason to go through all of the LED lights to see the reviews. BTW - just so you understand this was not BRS reviewing - it was consumers that bought the light and gave positive and negative reviews - (Percentage wise - both were the same positive./negative from what I could estimate - though I didnt calculate them).

My post was only to address the comments I heard several times that MH is taking over from LED - I don't see that on the sites I look at - though as JDA says - different areas of the country and different reefers may use more of one type or another. I have used both - I like both - I dont see much difference, but I understand some people swear by their MH (and their LED)

I think I accurately got the spirit of the post. Leds claim the market majority now I would be willing to bet. I have no illusion MH will have a Renaissance of any sort. Just hoping they’ll hang on a while to allow me to not have to spend thousands of dollars to remain in the hobby

 

[oreo54]

Putting on my Nostradamus hat..
Mh's aren't going anywhere soon.
Biggest problem might be some of the more exotic "pours" like 20000k.
Can't think of a use for them outside reef tanks and that market is pretty tiny in relation to others
but running a few 1000 (10,000?? Anyone know how many 20000k bulbs are made per year?) on a line per year isn't difficult.

Some companies just like to be "different" and sacrifice the bottom line for bragging rights.
As long as the real manuf agrees.. you will be fine..
There is a history of great products disappearing, for one reason or another..

Mercury is another issue..............tired of it in my fish..and, sadly, it's the little guy that usually takes the hit first.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Numbers are somewhat subjective, of course. You could tell when people were running from MH with CraigsList and forums littered with nice stuff for pennies on the dollar... new bulbs for $5-10, m80 ballasts for $20 bucks, PFO Ballasts (holy grail to some) for $30-40, etc. Some manufacturers stopped making stuff like Phoenix 14k, AquaMedic, etc. Then it stopped a few years later, much to my disappointment since I really enjoyed stocking up on the quality used stuff. PEC started making 14k bulbs again since the demand was still there. Then, there is what I consider an upswing where used equipment commands a pretty penny for individual pieces (custom fixtures are still hard to sell), more companies investing and selling MH (reefbrite), new offerings of ballasts and bulbs from many different companies, etc. IMO, we are still in this upswing. I had to pay near retail for some used equipment not too long ago... been years since that happened. Do the numbers compare to other tech, who knows...but I am happy that Hamilton, Giesemann, RB, etc are doing very well so that there is no risk of this stuff being unavailable anytime soon.

Of course, just anecdotes that mean nothing, but if you were around when the exodus happened, you can tell that it is different now.

Yep I agree totally, and have noticed this myself. A couple years ago I picked up ton (probably 5 digits retail worth) of working halide fixtures, ballasts, etc for 90 dollars from a large LA wholesaler that was switching over to all LED and was dumping off all their halide hardware. Nowadays the stuff is in more demand and that sort of deal can't be gotten on used halide stuff, although it certainly is still in the minority in terms of user base. I wish it could though as I've resold most of the good condition used but working stuff I picked up back then. Could use a few more Cayman sun pendants and m80 ballasts for sure.

 

[maroun.c]

That is ridiculous statement

Your free to think of my statement as you wish but I can look at SPS under 14K halides and i can see their colors then i can turn on my radions and it's not there, it's way worse when a bit of blue is there as well on the radions. Simply test it by snapping a few pics. Shots under halides can getaway without any post processing while it's still not possible to get the colors right with most cameras with LEDs without post processing.
Is that a limiting factor, will that stop me from using LEds or does that make Leds bad to me ?
The answer is No and I use them on 5 tanks of.mine but that is just my observation, you're free to agree or disagree.

 

[chefjpaul]

The rise of rimless aquariums and the aesthetics have a Part play besides just the LED marketing.

If someone made a MH that looks something like a Hydra 52, I bet you would see a lot more being hung up.

 

[oreo54]

Your free to think of my statement as you wish but I can look at SPS under 14K halides and i can see their colors then i can turn on my radions and it's not there, it's way worse when a bit of blue is there as well on the radions. Simply test it by snapping a few pics. Shots under halides can getaway without any post processing while it's still not possible to get the colors right with most cameras with LEDs without post processing.
Is that a limiting factor, will that stop me from using LEds or does that make Leds bad to me ?
The answer is No and I use them on 5 tanks of.mine but that is just my observation, you're free to agree or disagree.

sorry, you are still missing the point..
Photography is a whole another thing..

and again.. it's the implementation not the tech.. and frankly isn't it how it looks to your eye that counts?

What does a camera have to do w/ it?
It too uses solid state parts and mathematic interpolation but yes..LEd's are hard to photograph but PLENTY are used in studio lights.
Another young field..but I digress.

BTW: are your radions on fuller spectrum or did you quench all the color for your photographs?
might as well just stick a blue pass filter on your MH's and shoot..

I'm not going to argue digital photography here or how ones eyes trick you w/ color.. 2 added science and arts..
I've post processed plenty of RAW files..and also understand how they work..
It starts w/ Bayer interpolation and the RAW processing profile.. Talk about "magic".. ect.ect..
Current camera is a Pentax k3..
Oh and a hint.. post processing only as good as the conversion software, channel multipliers ect ect ..which I assume you understand..

so yes I understand the difficulty.. I also understand many times what the camera see's it's not what you "see" either..
Which is wrong???

O.T But if you own a Nikon you should look up Illyia Borg and UniWB
https://www.malch.com/nikon/UniWB.html

It's a fun trick...not sure it would help here though. Haven't really used it for years.
Basically sets your RGB channel multipliers to 1:1:1