No love for MH?

[A. grandis]

I've been reefing for over 30 years, and anybody claiming that metal halide is a bullet proof solution for reef tanks is wrong.
I hate bad science, and reefing forums are full of lighting science myths that would flunk a 6th grader out of science class. What I hate more is revising history.
15-20 years ago before we had LEDs we had mostly metal halides with fluorescent tubes being the new kid on the block . The reason we were flocking to tubes is we were tired of killing our SPS every time we changed halide bulbs due to horrendous spectral differences in new bulbs vs old bulbs given reef halides were'nt manufactured with enough volume to keep proper Q/C deviations. Changing halide bulbs on a reef tank were like changing fuel rods in a nuclear reactor and done with a lot of shaking and sweating...except I think the Russians had better quality control. With a LED light I can turn the thing down to acclimate coral. Not possible with tubes or halide. Frankly I love the look of a good halide tank because the LED equivelants like the Kessil don't have the color mix down. Otherwise the most vigorous and healthy SPS tanks I've seen are lit with chinese black boxs.

It would be great to know what are the "science myths" you are referring to. There are too many... Like for example that LEDs are actually better than halides and T5s. They all depend on the application, they way they are used.
Back in the day we already knew how to adapt the corals to the new halides every year. We just had to lit them for less hours a day and bring the hours back to normal in a week or two, if that was the case. Others would put their fixtures a bit higher too. No big deal! Part of the process of adaptation. I've never lost any organism in all my years of reefing to any light, no matter what type it was. They ALL need to be used according to the way they should.
The most vigorous, beautiful, colorful and healthy SPS corals I've seen were under the sun, otherwise under metal halides / VHO or T5s. That's my personal opinion. And you have yours... fine with most of us. All personal opinions.
I'm not sure if anyone here actually said that metal halides are "bullet proof" in that sense.
One last thing... LED equivalent to halides? Like Kessil? I hope you referring specifically to the similarity in visual appearance, generally speaking.
You have a strong way to dramatize and to hate things. This is just a hobby.

 

[oreo54]

you sure have a way of downplaying halides and over playing LED's..

Raising and lowering high intensity lighting has multiple issues.. like room spill and wasting energy...
All that light thats now spread out outside the tank...

 

[Jay Norris]

It would be great to know what are the "science myths" you are referring to. There are too many... Like for example that LEDs are actually better than halides and T5s. They all depend on the application, they way they are used.
Back in the day we already knew how to adapt the corals to the new halides every year. We just had to lit them for less hours a day and bring the hours back to normal in a week or two, if that was the case. Others would put their fixtures a bit higher too. No big deal! Part of the process of adaptation. I've never lost any organism in all my years of reefing to any light, no matter what type it was. They ALL need to be used according to the way they should.
The most vigorous, beautiful, colorful and healthy SPS corals I've seen were under the sun, otherwise under metal halides / VHO or T5s. That's my personal opinion. And you have yours... fine with most of us. All personal opinions.
I'm not sure if anyone here actually said that metal halides are "bullet proof" in that sense.
One last thing... LED equivalent to halides? Like Kessil? I hope you referring specifically to the similarity in visual appearance, generally speaking.
You have a strong way to dramatize and to hate things. This is just a hobby.

Hi , being a former M/H, VHO, T5 user for over 30 yrs., there is only one, maybe 2 LEDS I know of who can out preform M/H's, the one I know for sure is just as good, if not better is the Mitra LX 7206 LED light, and the second one is the new Radion G4, which is not as good as the Mitra, but very close.

 

[A. grandis]

Hi , being a former M/H, VHO, T5 user for over 30 yrs., there is only one, maybe 2 LEDS I know of who can out preform M/H's, the one I know for sure is just as good, if not better is the Mitra LX 7206 LED light, and the second one is the new Radion G4, which is not as good as the Mitra, but very close.

Hi, based in what requirement/qualities? See... that will all depend on what you are looking for (visually, or for your application). Simple as that.
I've learned that the dream tank 25 years ago isn't the same as the dream tank nowadays. The goal now preached by the media is totally different. Some people say that they like the "blues" from those LEDs more than they like their corals!
One thing for sure won't change: growth and colors (natural pigmentation, not reflection!) are greater using metal halides than using any
LEDs in the market, when the comparison is fair. Just my opinion. Maybe you are looking for different growth/colors than I am (?). That's why it's all relative when comparing.
People use those G4s at 100% and place them way high for "better distribution" and "less disco effects", or over taller than normal home tanks, like Dr. Sanjay's 500 gal. That "works" for him. Would halides be better there? Sure! He knows that too. Ask him... Did he change to LEDs because they are better lights? No. Ask him the real reason... That wasn't the excuse. Still people get examples like that to justify quality and efficacy of G4s. That's just one example. Many people tell me G4s are junk. I think it is more like Christmas lights, no offense.
I came down to the conclusion that as long as people try the different light sources and see the results, they can choose what they want. I have no business with that. Everyone has their own taste. Problem is when people in the hobby or LED companies try to sell their products using nice clean pamphlets diminishing the other sources of light as they were inferior, while many of us still see halides and T5s as superior lights for the applications and results we are looking for.
I'm glad you are happy with your lights. Thanks for sharing.

 

[oreo54]

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature2
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/dr-joshi’s-500-gallon-sps-dominated-mixed-reef.2/

People have argued about whether or not LEDs will grow coral. I have never had any issue at all – just look at my tank. I ran 1200 watts of halides for 10 hours before and had good growth – now I run roughly the same wattage of LEDs and get better growth on most corals. I’ve had to frag this tank several times in the last two years. I also have great color.

 

[A. grandis]

Some of the corals he has will NEVER show same colors as they would under the halides. Good example is the yellow Porites sp. (@6:25) he was talking about in one of the more recent videos... He said that! By the way... Jake Adams didn't want to talk too much about that (probably because ReefBuilders is sponsored by EcoTech?) and instead brought the "blues" that everyone seems to be amazed. Corals are dying more under with the shades by the LEDs. He told me that once. This is just to show that there is a difference, as a matter of fact!
(@6:25)

After a while, after those articles, things changed. The tank was only 2 1/2 years old in the last article you have there, 2016. Try look all the videos...
Better... go talk to him!
Not trying to convince anyone of anything here. Just laying those facts.
But again, those LEDs are "working for him", so what? He is happy and the tank is looking good. That is his tank, not mine.
I would prefer 400W Radiums or the 400W Ushios 14K way better!!! Same wattage, right? No heaters...

Oh... another thing on the side I was thinking... I wouldn't be surprised if Ecotech got the name RADION because the best seller halide bulb is the RADIUM. Got it?

Quote from the article you posted:

This tank looks spectacular- you said you have had it for 10 years – is this coral 10 years old?

No, this tank in its current form is only two and a half years old. I had a major tank collapse while I was at MACNA 2013 in Ft. Lauderdale because of a chiller failure. The temperature in my tank got up to 90 degrees and almost everything died. It was then that I decided to make the switch to EcoTech LEDs so that I could ditch the chiller and not have to worry as much about temperature swings due to my lighting.

There are other better ways IMO to solve the problem with the chiller! He preferred to get LEDs and use heaters...
He could just set the controller to turn off the lights when temperature gets too high. So simple!!!!
I think he just wanted to try LEDs back then and found a good opportunity to do so. Not a big deal.
He has an amazing system regardless.

 

[A. grandis]

Here something to enjoy for the weekend!!
Our friend Carroll's tank back in 2013! TOTM!!
From the comments:

Thank you for the compliment. Unfortunately I cannot do a video of the tank equipment since the tank was torn down in October of 2013 when we moved.

The equipment was as follows:
Lighting: 3 - 400w Radium MH, Sunlight Supply Lumenmax Elite reflectors, 2 - 100w Ecoxotic Canon LED
...

I don't think the Canons were the main light over that tank.
Have a great weekend.

 

[oreo54]

Not trying to convince anyone of anything here.

Could have fooled me.....................

Some of the corals he has will NEVER show same colors as they would under the halides.

how do you decide which "color" is right???

I don't think the Canons were the main light over that tank.

1200W vs 200W gee....

 

[A. grandis]

Could have fooled me.....................

You never give up. Haha!

how do you decide which "color" is right???

You decide. Halides or LEDs.

1200W vs 200W gee....

Yes, of course. That shows the halides were making those amazing colorful corals to look and grow like that!!!

 

[oreo54]

You never give up. Haha!

You decide. Halides or LEDs.

Yes, of course. That shows the halides were making those amazing colorful corals to look and grow like that!!!

Add 1200W of LED's see what happens........
See THAT is my pet peeve.. Even considering the higher degree of LED "delivery accuracy" you still have watts producing photons in proportion o their efficiency.
W/ halides that is about 100L/ watt.. W/ LED's they were less than that, commonly equal to that and getting more common 20-30% more than that.

Also REAL watts not the fake ones given by black boxes..

People that say things like "my 200W of LED's didn't grow or color my corals like my 800w of halides did"..is just ..err ..a stupid comparison...

It's real output and in some regards real spectrum. I have no love for Royal Blue/High K white LED arrays.
That alone was what gave led's a.. er.. "bad name" coupled w/ fake watt labeling.. well things are just not equal in gross photons.. thus not equal in response..
It's not the LED's per se..
Yea there is also a "form factor" issue i.e tiny small emitters w/ a lot of focused output, but that is a physics problem mainly not an "LED" problem..

The valid "arguments" are "design" related not LED related..

 

[Jay Norris]

Hi, based in what requirement/qualities? See... that will all depend on what you are looking for (visually, or for your application). Simple as that.
I've learned that the dream tank 25 years ago isn't the same as the dream tank nowadays. The goal now preached by the media is totally different. Some people say that they like the "blues" from those LEDs more than they like their corals!
One thing for sure won't change: growth and colors (natural pigmentation, not reflection!) are greater using metal halides than using any
LEDs in the market, when the comparison is fair. Just my opinion. Maybe you are looking for different growth/colors than I am (?). That's why it's all relative when comparing.
People use those G4s at 100% and place them way high for "better distribution" and "less disco effects", or over taller than normal home tanks, like Dr. Sanjay's 500 gal. That "works" for him. Would halides be better there? Sure! He knows that too. Ask him... Did he change to LEDs because they are better lights? No. Ask him the real reason... That wasn't the excuse. Still people get examples like that to justify quality and efficacy of G4s. That's just one example. Many people tell me G4s are junk. I think it is more like Christmas lights, no offense.
I came down to the conclusion that as long as people try the different light sources and see the results, they can choose what they want. I have no business with that. Everyone has their own taste. Problem is when people in the hobby or LED companies try to sell their products using nice clean pamphlets diminishing the other sources of light as they were inferior, while many of us still see halides and T5s as superior lights for the applications and results we are looking for.
I'm glad you are happy with your lights. Thanks for sharing.

Hi, I really like my M/H, VHO combo the best from the old world lighting style, they grew every type of coral possible, and were very easy to maintain, just change the bulbs every 9 or so months. When LED's first came on the market, nobody had clue how to properly adjust them, for the longest time, then after a few years their were more and more reports of people having some success with LED's, and finally a few more years later there are a few LED light manufacture who are really starting to understand how to build an LED fixture that can grow corals as well as the old M/H, VHO, T5 combos so many people used for so many years. The only problems that I still see with LED's is the price, and knowing how to properly program the very high end LED's, as they are not plug and play like my old M/H combos. It took me a little time to learn how to properly program these LED light fixtures to get the results I had with my former M/H combos, and once you figure it out, and have the proper LED fixtures you will be amazed by how a really good LED light fixture can grow corals and light an aquarium. The LED fixtures I use are the Mitra LX 7206 lights, yes they are expensive, but they have the best light spread, no disco ball effect no matter how low you place them to the water, as they use a parabolic reflector like my old Lumentek reflectors I used for my M/H, to blend all the different LED lights to match the light out put like my M/H's. Their is an added benefit to people who live in very warm climates, and that is you don't get the heat out put, like you get from M/H's, thus you reduce your electric bill, by your chiller and fish room A/C not needing to run as much, now if you live in colder climates, the opposite may be true, as the added benefit of the heat output from M/H's is a good thing and my save you money on your electric bill. On the blues that LED's emit, I can program my LED light fixtures to be as white as any M/H fixture on the market, but I also liked the 14k look of the old, no longer made SE Phoenix lamps the best, with the Radium 20k bulbs a very close second. Good luck with whatever like source you, or anyone else on this board prefer, as their is no one light source that fits all aquarist taste.

 

[Jay Norris]

Add 1200W of LED's see what happens........
See THAT is my pet peeve.. Even considering the higher degree of LED "delivery accuracy" you still have watts producing photons in proportion o their efficiency.
W/ halides that is about 100L/ watt.. W/ LED's they were less than that, commonly equal to that and getting more common 20-30% more than that.

Also REAL watts not the fake ones given by black boxes..

People that say things like "my 200W of LED's didn't grow or color my corals like my 800w of halides did"..is just ..err ..a stupid comparison...

It's real output and in some regards real spectrum. I have no love for Royal Blue/High K white LED arrays.
That alone was what gave led's a.. er.. "bad name" coupled w/ fake watt labeling.. well things are just not equal in gross photons.. thus not equal in response..
It's not the LED's per se..
Yea there is also a "form factor" issue i.e tiny small emitters w/ a lot of focused output, but that is a physics problem mainly not an "LED" problem..

The valid "arguments" are "design" related not LED related..

This is probably the best post on this article, how so very true your statement is, when I changed over to LED's, I also used the same amount of wattage that my old M/H fixtures use to deliver, and since I used more LED fixtures, I have even better light spread and less shadowing in my tank, then before the change.

 

[Tek]

I went back to 3 x 250W MH Radiums, but supplemented with ATI blue+ T5 on the back and Blue LEDs on the front.

I did not have to dial in anything and the corals are coloring and growing so well. I wasted a good 2-3 years trying out LEDs and lost out on enjoying the reef.

 

[RCS82]

Hi , being a former M/H, VHO, T5 user for over 30 yrs., there is only one, maybe 2 LEDS I know of who can out preform M/H's, the one I know for sure is just as good, if not better is the Mitra LX 7206 LED light, and the second one is the new Radion G4, which is not as good as the Mitra, but very close.

Just my opinion but from what I've seen for every tank with a Mitra above it there are 20 tanks with Radions above them. And more than likely 10 tanks with Kessils or Hydras over them. Add in the Orphek Atlantic which I think belongs near the top of the list. Yes we all know you love your Mitras and that is great, I have a doser2.1 and I love the ghl stuff.

 

[basement reefer]

MH is horribly inefficient and bulbs are really hard to get. (Heat)

LED are kinda expensive for nice fixture with lots of features, but LED diodes are not inherently expensive in and of themselves. I mean even a nice ATI 100watt T5 fixture cost $750 plus bulbs here.

I switched from a 360 Kessil to 150 watt MH just to have that real world experience. It was OK, yes it was easy however it lacked the pop of LED and didn't make it past the first bulb change. I replaced it with some 5000K screw in LED lol until I settled on a Radion with diffuser.

MH light is very broadband shotgun approach to lighting which is why it works so well and why LED is much more efficient when the right configuration is chosen. All MH lights are more alike then different, LED fixtures can be quite different from one another.
LED allows us to extract certain spectrums of interest seen in MH, while rejecting others.

Only downfall to the Radion is I can't warm hot dogs on it like I did with the MH.

 

[RCS82]

MH is horribly inefficient and bulbs are really hard to get. (Heat)

This made me laugh. Where do you guys get this from.
I live in Canada and can buy Radiums, Phoenix, Hamilton, Giesemann, single end, double end, which ever.

 

[DSC reef]

This made me laugh. Where do you guys get this from.
I live in Canada and can buy Radiums, Phoenix, Hamilton, Giesemann, single end, double end, which ever.

Agreed. Never had an issue getting bulbs. 3 radium 250 SE are going on the new build for us.

 

[basement reefer]

This made me laugh. Where do you guys get this from.
I live in Canada and can buy Radiums, Phoenix, Hamilton, Giesemann, single end, double end, which ever.

Right and the only replacement bulb I could get for my 150watt DE 2 years ago was a Phoenix off of American eBay, forget Radium, go find me one. I'm not making this up. You can have them all.

The next problem is nobody wants most those bulbs. On brands 14oooK looks different from another, it's hard to anticipate how it will look. Easy to spit out brands, harder to find a bulb you like that also fits your socket.

 

[basement reefer]

Agreed. Never had an issue getting bulbs. 3 radium 250 SE are going on the new build for us.

Great, I look forward to a link to a 150watt DE radium for this dead fixture I have here. It can't be a used bulb and must be under $150 at my door step.

 

[DSC reef]

Great, I look forward to a link to a 150watt DE radium for this dead fixture here. Oh it can't be used and must be under $150 at my door step.

No need to get rude. Try a 20k Hamilton. That's what I ran when we could not get radiums anymore. Worked great for years. If your looking for an argument, plenty of threads out there.