NO3 Vs Acropora

[Hans-Werner]

I have a picture for you (ORA Red Planet) with data…values and (the ratio) I know you love. Pic’s are dated if you look closely:

I have a question: Why did you dose Fluconazole? What is it for?

My conclusion from your postings and your pics is, that nitrate dosing helps to regulate trace elements, most likely iron and maybe a few more. Nitrate works as an oxidant and usually is dosed under nitrogen sufficient conditions.

What you observe in corals and in the cleaner tank is not a direct nitrate effect but an indirect effect. The same goal may also be achieved in other ways but nitrate is maybe the most convenient and reliable way to achieve it.

 

[Curiousbranching]

Higher no3 does not likely have any effect on darker corals on it's own, but it is likely a sign that more nitrogen passed through the system. Those other sources of higher nitrogen could have produced more zoox in the corals making them appear more dark to our eyes. Some like this darker color and some do not. If you rise too much, the coral will not be able to protect the zoox from too much nitrogen anymore and it can start to expel zoox. Nitrogen is necessary for new tissue, can be used well in a slight surplus, can be a hinderance in too much of a surplus and then it will end in death of all organic tissue if it gets too high.

With corals, this all can happen from undetecteable to 5ppm for some that are very sensitive whereas some corals still go strong in the undetectable to 150ppm range, or more. What makes this even harder is that too few know if a growing coral can be growing faster (in the hinderance range, but still alive and barely growing).

The age-old example is ORA red planet. In higher no3 and po4 environments, it would get a deep, dark red color - excess zoox. In lower no3 and po4 environments, it would have white on the tips, grow faster and have white contrast in the middle of the branches and stuff. Some folks like one look, some like another and some like either of them.

Remember, though, that it was not likely the rise of no3 that did this. It was the availability of nitrogen in different forms that got more nitrogen to the coral and also made the nitrate on the backend rise.

I have experienced with increasing no3 too high, specifically beyond Hanna's scale(over 90ppm). It was a problem when I mixed in the wrong ratio for NO3+ solution. All Acro in the tank turns brown in just a few days, some show signs of STN from the bottom. But I am not sure if this is the result of too high NO3 or the sudden change in NO3 that has led to the above phenomenon.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have a question: Why did you dose Fluconazole? What is it for?

I started with all Marco Dry rock. The rock wasn’t from MarcoRock themselves, but the same rock out of that Florida rock quarry. My second month in…I already had Ostreopsis Dino’s (most toxic) despite supplementing N&P to detectable levels when both started to bottom out. I could see the tank was literally going nowhere, because the system was extremely sterile. I cut off every frag plug and base of every acro (hoping to avoid AEFW’s and any Bryopsis or other algae species). I also scraped and brushed every snail that I added trying to avoid Vermetid snails, which I did avoid. I don’t even have one even until today.

So, since the tank was literally stuck going nowhere, I decided to add some good Florida Keys LR to kick it off and get it going with some biodiversity. Although I did only add 10lbs, I knew I was taking a huge risk with many pests. I lived on the Gulf of Mexico all my life, and I’ve surfed up and down the Florida coast on both sides (East and West) for years. After counting the costs, I added the 10lbs. Rock was beautiful, but of course it brought in a bunch of undesirables including “Bryopsis” which spreads like wildfire. Typically nothing will eat it because it tastes bitter. For that reason I treated the tank with Fluconzole which turned out to be a big mistake. Much different than the first time I used it. Within 9 days it nearly crashed the whole tank (I’ll link the details below if you’re interested).

Fluconazole is still very effective treatment even at low doses. I wish I knew that beforehand. The typical larger dose is not needed and can be dangerous to some systems.

FYI…most people my current system had very weird problems right after start up. It was binding Phosphate for about 1 year- A lot of Phosphate! It finally saturated, and I’m currently not dosing any nutrients. I think the issues had something to do with the long cure time I did with the rock, or maybe somebody treated it with something like Lanthanum Chloride before it was sold to me. Either way, it wasn’t acting like a normal system at all, and I believe because of that reason the Fluconazole treatment didn’t go well.

Anyway, here’s my notes below as to what happened:

Fluconazole Tx

STARTED Fluconazole- 1 pill (200mg) per 10/G
10/11/22 0105- Start date

10/13/22 Not much visual change at 48 hrs. Some snails have brown dying algae on their shells.

Same observation at 56 hrs. Not much visual changes like I observed in the last tank. Although I did have much more light in the last tank which definitely played a role.

72 hrs later (10/14/22) 0105
Not much change other than what’s noted above. The longer GHA has turned brown. The Bryopsis is becoming slightly white/grey on the tips. Rock work appears slightly cleaner. Skimmer remains off. Will likely turn it back on this morning. Will keep the Carbon out until treatment is completed. Overall, much slower process this time due to less intense light. Alkalinity slowly climbing. Nutrients are fairly stable. I did ramp down a lot initially, but I’ve had to increase PO4 to keep it in the target range. Nitrate has come down slowly and did not elevate surprisingly. Corals, inverts, fish, sponge, pods, LPS, Acro’s, etc…all doing well. I have noticed a slight decrease in PE on a few Acro’s, but others do not seem to be effected.

10/15/22 Major decrease in PE. Bryopsis is starting to become lighter and some has already melted away. Corals look unhappy. No color loss, but definitely very little PE now. GHA also turning brown in several places.

10/16/22 Still very little PE. Some corals are becoming slightly pale. Algae continues to die and turn brown. Bryopsis and the longer GHA melts away first. The turf is more stubborn, but is turning brown in a lot of area’s. Some is still green. Alkalinity seems to have leveled out now. Nutrients starting to elevate due to the algae dying more rapidly now. I’ve needed to bump my PO4 down. NO3 may be next.

10/17/22 Algae on back glass and overflow box is completely dead. All Bryopsis patches are melted. Most of the Turf algae on bottom of tank is turning brown and 1/2 is dead. Several corals have lost color and are fading significantly. PE is gone. Corals honestly looking pretty bad. Some almost look dry. I’m a little nervous at this point, but I want all the algae dead.

10/19/22 RR Firecracker and a few other Acro’s are looking really pale. No PE. The Firecracker is pretty much white, but alive. All the Acro’s except for a few have browned-out pretty bad. I’m assuming because all of the dying algae. I’ve stayed on top of nutrient testing and ALK. Will be making water change water and getting carbon ready today. If any corals STN/RTN I will terminate treatment immediately. Honestly, it’s not looking good in there, but I want to kill as much algae as possible and prevent Bryopsis from coming back. That was the primary goal as it spreads like wild fire. Dino’s continue to enjoy the instability and have formed mats near the front glass. Nothing on the rocks, snails, or Wavemaker cords. pH remains high, with no changes. Nutrients are starting to stabilize and I’ve bumped my PO4 dose down by .08 ppm. Nitrate dose remains the same. For some reason NO3 never really elevated much.

10/20/22 1445 STOPPED Fluconazole- (Started Carbon) due to how horrible the Acro’s look. Zero PE. Most look very pale, dry, and almost like they’re about to STN/RTN. Will do a water change tonight. I do not see any Bryopsis left. Hopefully 9 days was enough to kill it all- everywhere. I think this treatment was more effective than the last (3 yrs ago), because I did keep the skimmer completely off for a full 3 days initially. The only algae still alive in the tank after 9 days is the turf algae on bottom (but that is getting really thin), and a few very small patches up top. 2300- Performed 20% Water Change (Red Sea Blue Bucket) 1.026 - temp 78. Corals still look like crap with no PE. Hopefully they don’t die in the morning.

10/21/22 Performed 10% water change. Corals look like crap.

10/22/22 Performed 20% water change. Corals look like crap.

10/23/22 Corals looking slightly better. PE is starting to peak out on a few Acro’s. Tank seems to have stabilized. Will wait 3 days and continue to flush the system. Then send ICP 48 hrs after last water change, and start loading the elements again. CAL tested at 370. Mag tested at 1200. Dosed up. Shocked they were that low. Last ICP had CAL at 436, and MAG at 1383.

10/24/22 Sadly lost the CC Voodoo Magic (RTN) this early am. Other corals looking better, but not by much. Will probably loose 5-6 more corals judging by how bad some look. We’ll see what happens in the next few weeks.

10/29/22 So far only the Voodoo Magic checked out which I have a backup for. Tank is has pretty much recovered, and several corals are regaining color now. Of course Dino’s blew up due to the water change’s (I assume iron in the salt), and the destabilizing event of the water change itself, but I had no choice. UV back on at night and lighting reduced to 10 hrs with less white. Still not very optimistic about 3-4 corals. Hopefully they will make it. We will see soon.

——————————————————
***More data that was previously not recorded yet.*** Updated 11/05/22

10/30/22 Corals looking much better. More PE coming back. Colors continue to slowly improve on 90% of the corals. The TSA Dan Aykroyd, JF Tierra Del Fuego, Pink Lemonade, and Strawberry Shortcake we’re the most effected. They have started to gain a little color, but not much. Wouldn’t be surprised if they checked out in the next week or two.

11/1/22 Corals continue to look better. More color and PE. Haven’t lost any others.

11/02/22 Corals coloring up and even the 4 that were the most effected are looking a little better and starting to color up slightly. Haven’t lost any others.

11/04/22 PE keeps increasing. Colors come continue to get better. Even the 4 most effected are continuing to color up. Corrections were made and the tank is back to healthy.

11/05/22 It appears that the tank and corals have fully recovered. Color is still coming back on the 4 bad ones, but I’m confident I won’t have any other losses. So I only lost the Voodoo Magic during this event.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Rock was beautiful, but of course it brought in a bunch of undesirables including “Bryopsis” which spreads like wildfire. Typically nothing will eat it because it tastes bitter. For that reason I treated the tank with Fluconzole which turned out to be a big mistake.

I never had problems with Bryopsis. In the beginnin some Bryopsis grew on live rock but it was not too bad, never took hold anywhere else and after clipping it off with my thumb nail and removing it soon it stayed away.

I think that Bryopsis, Chaetomorpha and Valonia are nitrophiles which means they like nitrogen, especially nitrate.

If you accept that nutrient uptake kinetics play a major role in nutrient uptake and which kind of organism dominates, it is easy to understand that in coral reefs algae may be nitrogen and iron limited while at the same time corals are phosphate limited.

 

[Reefahholic]

I never had problems with Bryopsis. In the beginnin some Bryopsis grew on live rock but it was not too bad, never took hold anywhere else and after clipping it off with my thumb nail and removing it soon it stayed away.

I think that Bryopsis, Chaetomorpha and Valonia are nitrophiles which means they like nitrogen, especially nitrate.

If you accept that nutrient uptake kinetics play a major role in nutrient uptake and which kind of organism dominates, it is easy to understand that in coral reefs algae may be nitrogen and iron limited while at the same time corals are phosphate limited.

Funny thing was that 6 months later after that Fluconazole treatment that melted away all the Bryopsis…sadly it came back. I ended up covering the two patches I had with epoxy, and haven’t seen any since.

It’s crazy how some of this stuff is so resistant that even after 6 months it can come back. That 10 lbs of KP Aquatics live rock I added from the Florida keys had some bubble algae initially.




Unfortunately, I go way back with bubble algae. Although it had larger pieces that I picked off and I looked at it at night with a flashlight for several days before I added it, I knew the spores would pop up later. Usually takes about 6 months for these tiny invisible spores to appear, and keep appearing like a time released drug. Basically microscopic, and the most intriguing thing is that I would get one here and one there, but it continued for 14 months or so. Only emerging from the LR. Some on the outside and some inside the crevices. I used a wooden skewer carful not to pop the bubbles and strategically dislodge it. I’m pretty sure I got it all. I haven’t seen anymore for a month or two now. I think when you remove them when they’re not fully grown that they’re not spreading yet. A lot of people say they don’t contain spores, but looking at it under a microscope it sure looks like spores to me. Maybe about 7-10 years ago I had a horrible outbreak. I popped the bubbles and scrapped the bubbles off the rocks with a butter knife. It blew up so bad shortly afterwards. I’m not sure if that was is a coincidence or if they really spread by spores. There’s so many different species I think it would be really difficult to say with certainty. Richard Ross said pop away, and that there’s a paper out about it not spreading by spores, but which species was studied.? I still haven’t seen the paper, but I can tell you that even if I did, I won’t pop the bubbles ever again if I don’t have to. People say my fish pop them all the time, but maybe that’s why the same people continue to have a lot of bubble algae in the system. Who knows.

Here’s a picture of the spores and how they were spread to the overflow box drain pipes, etc. Zoom in on that PVC
pipe. You can see how tiny the spores are. It was like an explosion of spores. I trashed all that rock. That’s why it’s in a brute can. I shutdown that system it was so infested. This was back before I started dosing nutrients, so I’m pretty sure the tank was limited. My tanks are always limited but the one I have not sets the record.

Here’s a video of what a bubble looks like under the scope:

 

[Hans-Werner]

It’s crazy how some of this stuff is so resistant that even after 6 months it can come back. That 10 lbs of KP Aquatics live rock I added from the Florida keys had some bubble algae initially.

Yes, I have grown nearly every kind of algae from Gametes and Spores, Asparagopsis, Halimeda and Caulerpa, but I don't recall bubble algae. I saw them "bleeding out" only once.

If young Halimeda or Caulerpa occur, it is sometimes half a year or nearly a year after removing the parents when you see them first. Suddenly the species grows in tank connected to the system where it never grew before and from tiny or even microscopic stadiums cute little new algae grow ...

 

[Hans-Werner]

For the record…I always post pics and data as to what I’m seeing. Why do I never see anybody else posting pictures and data?

Well, it is a lot of work for me, but here are at least some pictures, maybe data come later. I already can tell phosphate is quite high and nitrate quite low.

Some Acropora from above, Acroproa millepora, Acropora hyacinthus 'Red Planet' as centerpieces.

Acropora sp.

Same Acropora sp. clone in another tank of the same system, different lighting, lower light intensity, different angle of photography. Does anyone know the species? Ten years ago I was better in determining coral species. Meanwhile I care less for these details and look more at the big picture.

In this one I like the shape, much more impressive in 3D than in 2D

One of my "favourite Acropora" is in fact Cyphastrea decadia. Other colonies/frags of this clone resemble Acropora quite closely, and indeed sometimes it is mistaken as an Acropora, a mistake I also made when I saw this species the first time.

Originally this clone was completely red, an ordinary red like the red Montipora digitata in the first image. Since increasing the iodine and fluorine concentrations in AFR it turned into the geyish blue with red polyps which I like better.

We have some more interesting Acropora spp. but they are still harder to photograph.

 

[Reefahholic]

Well, it is a lot of work for me, but here are at least some pictures, maybe data come later. I already can tell phosphate is quite high and nitrate quite low.

Some Acropora from above, Acroproa millepora, Acropora hyacinthus 'Red Planet' as centerpieces.

Acropora sp.

Same Acropora sp. clone in another tank of the same system, different lighting, lower light intensity, different angle of photography. Does anyone know the species? Ten years ago I was better in determining coral species. Meanwhile I care less for these details and look more at the big picture.

In this one I like the shape, much more impressive in 3D than in 2D

One of my "favourite Acropora" is in fact Cyphastrea decadia. Other colonies/frags of this clone resemble Acropora quite closely, and indeed sometimes it is mistaken as an Acropora, a mistake I also made when I saw this species the first time.

Originally this clone was completely red, an ordinary red like the red Montipora digitata in the first image. Since increasing the iodine and fluorine concentrations in AFR it turned into the geyish blue with red polyps which I like better.

We have some more interesting Acropora spp. but they are still harder to photograph.

Looking really good in there Dr Balling. It’s really nice to see pics! I’m always welcoming anecdotal data (both good and bad). I think the #2 picture is a Pearlberry. Stunning piece!

 

[reefluvrr]

@Hans-Werner, Since NO3 is an oxidant and can brown out SPS. You mentioned adding too much amino acid can do the same. Will adding too much ammonium or Urea also brown out corals because the zooxanthellae will produce too much brown chlorophyll? Sorry if my question does not make sense.

 

[Hans-Werner]

@Hans-Werner, Since NO3 is an oxidant and can brown out SPS. You mentioned adding too much amino acid can do the same. Will adding too much ammonium or Urea also brown out corals because the zooxanthellae will produce too much brown chlorophyll? Sorry if my question does not make sense.

Your question completely makes sense.

Green chlorophyll is the center molecule of any photosynthesis. Orange caroteinoids are the antenna pigments which also collect light energy, together they form the brown color.

The caroteinoids contain no nitrogen while the chlorophylls do. The carotenoids may be one reason why corals have an advantage over green nuisance algae under nitrogen limiting conditions.

When the corals are nitrogen limited the zooxanthellae reduce pigmentation which renders the corals a less brown and brighter color. More nitrogen may cause corals to brown out. I think for this process it is of secondary importance whether the nitrogen is from nitrate, ammonium, urea or amino acids.

Nitrate is an oxidant which may be a disadvantage or maybe an advantage. It can keep iron and manganese oxidized and in this way make the corals less brown and of brighter colors and keep cyanobacteria and algae in check, or it can form reactive oxygen species which may cause tissue necrosis in corals if they really make extensive use of the nitrate as nitrogen source.

 

[reefluvrr]

Nitrate is an oxidant which may be a disadvantage or maybe an advantage. It can keep iron and manganese oxidized and in this way make the corals less brown and of brighter colors and keep cyanobacteria and algae in check, or it can form reactive oxygen species which may cause tissue necrosis in corals if they really make extensive use of the nitrate as nitrogen source.

Any recommendation on how to keep cyanobacteria and algae in check while having very low to zero NO3?

As always, thank you for your time and valuable knowledge!

 

[Hans-Werner]

Any recommendation on how to keep cyanobacteria and algae in check while having very low to zero NO3?

Cyanobacteria - low iron dosing, i. e. with trace elements low in iron concentration, regular siphoning, patience.

With low nitrogen concentrations, green nuisance algae usually are no problem, reason as stated above, chlorophyll. Asparagopsis/Falkenbergia may be a problem, if this red alga finds its way into the tank.

 

[reefluvrr]

Cyanobacteria - low iron dosing, i. e. with trace elements low in iron concentration, regular siphoning, patience.

With low nitrogen concentrations, green nuisance algae usually are no problem, reason as stated above, chlorophyll. Asparagopsis/Falkenbergia may be a problem, if this red alga finds its way into the tank.

Even if I have 0 reading on NO3, if I have green algae on my glass. That may indicate too much Nitrogen from another source? I have another tank with high PO4 (0.4) but very low to even zero NO3. This is a skimmer less tank. I have to clean the glass daily. In this tank I mainly keep mushroom, ricordea, and acan lord and blastomussa. Do you think the PO4 may be too high to prevent growth of these corals? Since it is skimmer less, my pH is very low. 7.8. Maybe this is the cause of my LPS not growing, but I am not sure if pH affect soft coral growth?

I do not have cyanobacteria, however to make thing clear. If one does have cyanobacteria, one should dose a low concentration of iron?

Thank you!

 

[Hans-Werner]

Even if I have 0 reading on NO3, if I have green algae on my glass. That may indicate too much Nitrogen from another source? I have another tank with high PO4 (0.4) but very low to even zero NO3. This is a skimmer less tank. I have to clean the glass daily. In this tank I mainly keep mushroom, ricordea, and acan lord and blastomussa. Do you think the PO4 may be too high to prevent growth of these corals? Since it is skimmer less, my pH is very low. 7.8. Maybe this is the cause of my LPS not growing, but I am not sure if pH affect soft coral growth?

I do not have cyanobacteria, however to make thing clear. If one does have cyanobacteria, one should dose a low concentration of iron?

Thank you!

I don't think 0.4 ppm is too high for these specific corals. Acans are rather high nutrient tolerant corals from deeper waters. I would look for another cause, maybe trace element deficiency or generally more in direction deficiency.

 

[djf91]

Well, it is a lot of work for me, but here are at least some pictures, maybe data come later. I already can tell phosphate is quite high and nitrate quite low.

Some Acropora from above, Acroproa millepora, Acropora hyacinthus 'Red Planet' as centerpieces.

Acropora sp.

Same Acropora sp. clone in another tank of the same system, different lighting, lower light intensity, different angle of photography. Does anyone know the species? Ten years ago I was better in determining coral species. Meanwhile I care less for these details and look more at the big picture.

In this one I like the shape, much more impressive in 3D than in 2D

One of my "favourite Acropora" is in fact Cyphastrea decadia. Other colonies/frags of this clone resemble Acropora quite closely, and indeed sometimes it is mistaken as an Acropora, a mistake I also made when I saw this species the first time.

Originally this clone was completely red, an ordinary red like the red Montipora digitata in the first image. Since increasing the iodine and fluorine concentrations in AFR it turned into the geyish blue with red polyps which I like better.

We have some more interesting Acropora spp. but they are still harder to photograph.

Not sure of the Disney channel name but I think the species might be Acropora nasuta.