NO3 Vs Acropora

[Reef Psychology]

I agree, to say that we can’t learn anything from anecdotal observations is a little fierce. Yes, there are a lot of variables at play, and the chemistry is always changing, but when you keep data with several tanks over several years you start to see better results with certain ratios and nutrient levels. This is not exactly the same for every system, and does also depend on the age of the system, but from what I’ve observed in my own tanks is that higher PO4 level and N-P ratio just does better for me personally. This is coming from somebody that tried to run at the low end for years, and it always seemed that something was off. I’ve had much clearer water, less algae, cleaner rocks, and better coral growth at 100:1 then I’ve had at 14:1. Higher nutrients in general just seem to be better for Acro’s. I honestly don’t think many people realize just how low .03 ppm actually is. I’ve even seen well established systems at .02-.03 ppm, and the corals are just pale. Maybe they didn’t have enough nutrients/nutrition going in. Maybe their overall chemistry was lacking. IDK. Just because a coral can tolerate .02-.03 ppm doesn’t mean they like it. Our tanks really don’t have enough food available. What we do provide typically fuels undesirables more than it feeds the corals IMO. For that reason alone I’d almost rather dose organic carbon to give the corals a food source, but also strengthen the bacteria population. Elements that boost algae (Fe, Mn, NO3, PO4) also benefit coral health which is why I typically dose them all depending on demand even though it may seem counterintuitive to some.

I never said "we can't learn anything from anecdotal observations...". Anecdotal observations are often the beginning of understanding. I'm just pointing out that on this particular subject, we don't have near enough information. So, when you said you had gone over 1,000's of ICP tests and corisponding images, I was kinda excited to see it. It seems like you're on top of your own data and information. Props for the details and observations. I read them and think you're doing a bang on job (though I really like a spreadsheet of all your parameters on this journey you're on so we can maybe see a trend).

 

[Reef Psychology]

What nutrient data did Dr Balling provide. I missed it.

I'm getting the impression you're avoiding heart of the subject; the 1,000's of results and photo's you've analyzed.

Where did I mention nutrient data? I said that I have less problem following his path of logic, but if you need a particular link to why I can follow him better, post #64 is a good example of clarity.

 

[Reefahholic]

I never said "we can't learn anything from anecdotal observations...". Anecdotal observations are often the beginning of understanding. I'm just pointing out that on this particular subject, we don't have near enough information. So, when you said you had gone over 1,000's of ICP tests and corisponding images, I was kinda excited to see it. It seems like you're on top of your own data and information. Props for the details and observations. I read them and think you're doing a bang on job (though I really like a spreadsheet of all your parameters on this journey you're on so we can maybe see a trend).

Sadly we have very little peer reviewed data in this hobby. Almost everything we have is anecdotal. I appreciate the kind words, just trying to catch Jda. If you would like to see a ton of ICP data going back 4 years shoot me a PM on Facebook, and I’ll add you to the group. It’s all public information, and just like here you’ll be able to search our group, and see endless data most of which has tank photos. Really interesting stuff when you start combing through it.

 

[Reefahholic]

I'm getting the impression you're avoiding heart of the subject; the 1,000's of results and photo's you've analyzed.

Where did I mention nutrient data? I said that I have less problem following his path of logic, but if you need a particular link to why I can follow him better, post #64 is a good example of clarity.

I just responded to that.

 

[Reef Psychology]

Sadly we have very little peer reviewed data in this hobby. Almost everything we have is anecdotal. I appreciate the kind words, just trying to catch Jda. If you would like to see a ton of ICP data going back 4 years shoot me a PM on Facebook, and I’ll add you to the group. It’s all public information, and just like here you’ll be able to search our group, and see endless data most of which has tank photos. Really interesting stuff when you start combing through it.

Um, yes please! Sadly I don't have a Facebook account. Is there another way?

 

[Reefahholic]

Um, yes please! Sadly I don't have a Facebook account. Is there another way?

I didn’t either. I only use it for the group and the two times I’ve created an account was to get back in the group. I’m not a big social media fan, but if it pertains to reefing I don’t mind. If you create an account, search “Reefahholic Houston.”

 

[Reefahholic]

I think we agree that taking a coral from a reef and putting it in a reef tank will not alter its physiology.

Figure 2.1 – Cumulative effect sizes for coral calcification rates in response to enrichment with
nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P) or joint nitrogen and phosphorus (N + P). Responses are shown for:
(a) all corals, (b) branching corals, (c) mounding corals, (d) Acropora spp., and (e) Porites spp.
Data are means ± 95% confidence intervals. Numbers in parenthesis indicate the number of
experiments used to calculate effect sizes.

Figure 2.2 – Cumulative effect sizes of nutrient enrichment on different metrics of photobiology of
corals: (a) the density of chlorophyll a within individual Symbiodinium, (b) the density of
Symbiodinium within corals, (c) the density of chlorophyll a per area of coral, and (d) gross
photosynthesis. Statistics as in Fig. 2.1

Figure 2.4 – Cumulative effect sizes for the impact of ammonium or nitrate on: (a) the calcification
rates of corals, (b) the concentration of chlorophyll a within Symbiodinium, and (c) the density
of Symbiodinium in coral tissue. Statistics as in Fig. 1

From Andrew A. Shantz, Dissertation, 2016

I feel like there is such an insane amount of food available in the ocean that comparing those nitrogen and phosphorus levels to that of a reef tank is not equivalent. Maybe this is the reason why we see more stick heads keeping higher nutrient levels. That is just a wild guess. Most people don’t have a tank over 3-4 years old, but if you did have the rare 10 yr old system, and you were supplementing live phtyo and zooplankton on a daily basis maybe the comparison would make more sense.

 

[Pod_01]

I am quite sure it is even more complicated, and it has less to do with testing: Corals have different uptake dynamics for different available N compounds and for phosphate. This means, at every given low concentration, the ratio may and will be different. An extreme example: If you have 0.02 ppm phosphate and 0.04 ppm nitrate, both nutrients may be at the limit and just be enough to keep the corals alive and growing.

I sometimes talk about ratios too, but I mean something completely different, something that is quite independent from uptake dynamics. When I talk about N : P ratios I talk about consumption and supply. This is a fundamental difference, please think about it for a moment.

If consumed in a certain ratio it makes sense to supply nutrients in a certain ratio to form a dynamic equilibrium. The standing stock may be completely different from this ratio because it is influenced by the uptake dynamics during coral (and algae) growth.

Since I have developed products for nutrient supply, I have done some experiments on nutrient supply. This is not only theory but also empiricism.

Hans just a silly question. When you talk about ratios, is that NO3 : PO4 or is it N : P. If it is N : P how does one figure it out.
I know you don’t promote one and your method is focused on the PO4 measurement but the ratio discussion is everywhere and I am honestly confused.


Sorry to derail the discussion.

 

[Hans-Werner]

IDK…I keep seeing a cleaner tank and better looking corals at higher nitrate level and ratio. Say at 100:1 vs 14:1

Yes, that is what I mean, it is more "oxidized". Iron is less mobile.

Dosing iron also has an effect on the phosphate level due to increased algae and coral growth.

Did you try? In my experience it are three nutrients where corals and algae differ significantly:

Nitrogen: Algae need more nitrogen than corals. Green algae (Bryopsis, bubble algae) like nitrate because this is what fills their vacuole osmotically. The vacuole is a kind of storage chamber that makes these algae turgid and voluminous. Bubble algae are nearly only vacuole with a thin tissue layer around. The bubble is the vacuole.

Phosphate: Corals need more phosphate, especially SPS and especially Acropora. This is because phosphate participates in skeletal growth/calcification. In general rapid calcification consumes more phosphate and more phosphate speeds up calcification but makes skeletons more fragile. Rapid growth with lighter skeletons like in Acropora needs more phosphate, slow growth with massive skeletons needs a little less.

Iron: In contrast to cyanobacteria and green algae corals need very little iron. Higher dosages of iron have rather adverse effects to corals and only benefit algae and cyanobacteria.

I'm not even sure if coral's exhibit or present the same 'starvation' signs as other animals. This thread seems to be more focused on algae and not on the corals themselves (in relation to dinoflagellates within and without the coral body).

Corals as holobiont are mixotrophic, which means both, photoautotrophic and heterotrophic. Their nutrition is in general 60 to 80 % photoautotrophic and the remaining part heterotrophic. For photoautotrophic nutrition they need just minerals like other photoautotrophic dinoflagellates.

Also heterotrophic organisms like fish or humans can make use of phosphate in mineral form like sodium phosphate, phosphoric acid (--> cola soft drinks) etc..

Hans just a silly question. When you talk about ratios, is that NO3 : PO4 or is it N : P. If it is N : P how does one figure it out.

You can convert the one in the other by simple calculation. N is never really N in nutrition except some bacteria called diazotrophs. N is always "available nitrogen compounds" (ANC) like nitrate, ammonium, amino acids, urea etc.. P also is never really P. P is very reactive and in biology nearly 100 % of P is some kind of phosphate, please see also Wikipedia.

What makes most sense but is uncommon for lays is the molar ratio. From the molar ratio you can calculate any ANC directly.

If a forum talk is about nitrate phosphate ratio I can talk about nitrate phosphate ratio. If I talk about consumption of nitrogen/N and phosphate/P in a certain ratio, it means molar ratio of ANC and phosphate. You can't tell from watching a coral what kind of ANC it is just consuming for growth.

Usually I will tell what I am talking about. If I tell about nitrate it is nitrate, if I tell about nitrogen or N it is ANC. In phosphorus, P or phosphorus and phosphate is the same when talking about molar ratios, in reality it is always phosphate. Complicated?

 

[Reef Psychology]

Corals as holobiont are mixotrophic, which means both, photoautotrophic and heterotrophic. Their nutrition is in general 60 to 80 % photoautotrophic and the remaining part heterotrophic. For photoautotrophic nutrition they need just minerals like other photoautotrophic dinoflagellates.

Also heterotrophic organisms like fish or humans can make use of phosphate in mineral form like sodium phosphate, phosphoric acid (--> cola soft drinks) etc..

Yes, I understand this. I was pondering over the breakdown of algae itself instead of corals ejecting it. Like humans when it comes to breakdown of sugars, fats and proteins when starving, but I’m guessing they are too simple for that.

 

[Reefahholic]

Did you try? In my experience it are three nutrients where corals and algae differ significantly:

Yes, I tried. I’m currently keeping iron around 0.8 - 1.0 ug/L.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Yes, I understand this. I was pondering over the breakdown of algae itself instead of corals ejecting it. Like humans when it comes to breakdown of sugars, fats and proteins when starving, but I’m guessing they are too simple for that.

I guess it is part of the mutualistic relationship: Either the corals accept the zooxanthellae as "own" and don't digest them or they see them as "foreign" and digest or expell them. There may be no "as well as".

However, if I remember correctly, Octocorallia are said to digest their zooxanthellae. Maybe they have managed to give the zooxanthellae a protected space outside of which they get digested.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Yes, I tried. I’m currently keeping iron around 0.8 - 1.0 ug/L.

What do you see in the corals, please? How does this improve growth or coloration?

 

[Pod_01]

For the record…I always post pics and data as to what I’m seeing. Why do I never see anybody else posting pictures and data?

I personally am not happy to show disasters. I mean take these as an example:

Complete Setose dead.

Or this

But I should have made some notes so I don’t repeat the same mistakes.

Usually those are the days I want to pack it in. The time the money the effort and I am looking at dead corals…. In a reef tank it is like slow motion train wreck….. Takes 3 months or less to get in trouble but 3+ months to get out.

 

[Reefahholic]

What do you see in the corals, please? How does this improve growth or coloration?

For color I’d say greens have become more vivid no doubt. Kinda hard to say it’s just iron alone though, because I’ve increased about 8 other traces each time I’ve increased the iron, but I believe the iron is causing a vivid green sheen that is just beautiful in the right light. Growth is kinda hard to determine, but for sure I’ve seen better growth from increasing the Metallic trace elements. I don’t think it’s one or two element’s in particular, but everything as a whole. You know as well as I do that it’s very hard to pin down what’s doing what when 20 elements are being targeted. I’ll show you a pic of the TSA Dan Aykroyd which I think may illustrate the green sheen under the right light. It’s not the best, but way better than it was before I increased those elements. Night and Day. This is not a before and after, but rather a color representation in 14K vs 20K, but I think it shows the green sheen pretty well.

 

[Reefahholic]

I personally am not happy to show disasters. I mean take these as an example:

Complete Setose dead.

Or this

But I should have made some notes so I don’t repeat the same mistakes.

Usually those are the days I want to pack it in. The time the money the effort and I am looking at dead corals…. In a reef tank it is like slow motion train wreck….. Takes 3 months or less to get in trouble but 3+ months to get out.

Better to show it and document it so that you know what went wrong later down the road. Thx for posting. Now get us some numbers to go with that.

 

[Pod_01]

Better to show it and document it so that you know what went wrong later down the road. Thx for posting. Now get us some numbers to go with that.

Yea… hmmm…. That happens when you turn your reef into fresh water and try to correct it ASAP.


That was followed by cyno that took better part of a year to clear up.

I suspect the biofilm collapsed and released build up nutrients into rock sand etc… so cyanobacteria had lot of opportunities to grow.

I did not use any chemicals but kept removing the mat and top layer of the sand.

The PO4 and NO3 were unstable for few months one week up next week down and rinse and repeat.
After few months NO3 dropped and PO4 was between 0.2-0.5.

Suddenly 3-4 months ago the Cyanobacteria just disappeared, really odd. One day it covered big chunk next day 75% and gone within a week.

 

[Pod_01]

Here as another reference:
This is what happens when PO4 is reduced to zero with GFO and Al absorbers and I tried to control food input (feed very little).

During that episode I lost 40% of the corals.

Here is one that survived:

I used PlusNP and later transitioned to NP Bacto Ballance. I also started feeding coral foods and was not afraid of feeding.
I was following Dr. Hans Werner method or approach.

Same coral 6 months later:

Hope that helps.

 

[blaxsun]

My nitrates are 35-40ppm and the acros grow like weeds...

 

[Reefahholic]

Mine are 26 right now and things look pretty good.