NO3 Vs Acropora

[Reefahholic]

@Hans-Werner may I also ask what Nitrogen source you prefer, and if you needed to dose phosphate what your first choice would be.

Also, what are your target levels in your current systems?

 

[Reefahholic]

You could use the TotM aquariums as a control. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. No need to get other people's anecdotal observations.

I’ve already calculated all of the RC TOTM’s to get an average.

Also looked at Mike Paletta’s Master’s write up, and averaged those.

I have data from multiple systems dating back at least 8-10 years. I’ve found what works best for my systems, but I always enjoy looking and learning about systems that are much different than mine. I also like sharing information with those likeminded individuals who are seriously looking for answers. My reef is doing well at the 50-100:1 ratio, but it could always be improved if I learn new information. Like Dr. Balling mentioned…if Nitrogen is hitting saturation at 2-3 ppm the rest is just excess.

Excess Nitrogen could be slowing growth. It may not be doing anything at all. Or…it could be feeding Vibrio bacteria, Spionid worms, and Vermetid snails. Who knows?

 

[Hans-Werner]

Well excellent, then we can compare observations and data.

I think there are different ways to run reef tanks and they may be such different that they are really hard to compare.

If we’re talking about algae growth I think it’s the nutrient ratio and the actual values (high/low) depending on each individual system.

This doesn't make sense when nutrients are in surplus. Nitrate levels of a few ppm are already so high that ratios don't matter any more, it is just more than enough, the uptake is saturated.

It is like putting a huge table with food in front of you. Can you eat more just because there is more food?

@Hans-Werner may I also ask what Nitrogen source you prefer, and if you needed to dose phosphate what your first choice would be.

Also, what are your target levels in your current systems?

I have always used urea because it is a non-toxic form of ammonia. There seem to be some other reduced nitrogen compounds, some amino acids, that give an even better effect, at least in combination.

We (Tropic Marin) have just released a product that supplies fine water insoluble phosphate particles. That is my preferred phosphate supply. I am happy that I found it.

Why don't you do it like Claude Schuhmacher recommends in the video? Look at the corals, the corals don't lie.

At the moment I don't have any target levels. I didn't have nitrate target concentrations the last 20 years, only observed phosphate. At the moment I largely ignore any parameters and don't test. I just want to watch, observe, see what is happening without even being influenced by some parameters I may have found.

In my eyes preset "target levels" is the wrong approach. Look what works, and when you think it is good, these are your target levels. Corals don't lie.

If you ask me for the concentrations I would recommend, 0.1 to 0.15 ppm phosphate, and just ignore nitrate, it is not important. Dose trace elements in certain ratios, try to achieve nitrogen limitation.

 

[Reefahholic]

This is off Mike’s write up “Tank Parameters Of Some Masters.”

Tank Parameters Of Some Masters

Tank Parameters Of Some Masters To this day one of the most frequently asked questions I get, and actually that many “old time hobbyists” get is “How do I get rid of the algae in my tank. My first question then is “what are the parameters of...

www.reef2reef.com

Look at the averaged ratios, it’s at 100:1

When you look at all of the numbers in each of these tanks, to be honest not much stands out, other than each of these individuals runs his tank his own way and each has found the sweet spot at which their tank operates optimally. When I averaged out all of the numbers the values were pretty close to those of NSW. Alk was 8.19, Ca 419. Mg 1361, NO3 18.77, PO4 .18, Sr 8.6 and temp 77.

 

[Hans-Werner]

This is off Mike’s write up “Tank Parameters Of Some Masters.”

Tank Parameters Of Some Masters

Tank Parameters Of Some Masters To this day one of the most frequently asked questions I get, and actually that many “old time hobbyists” get is “How do I get rid of the algae in my tank. My first question then is “what are the parameters of...

www.reef2reef.com

Look at the averaged ratios, it’s at 100:1

When you look at all of the numbers in each of these tanks, to be honest not much stands out, other than each of these individuals runs his tank his own way and each has found the sweet spot at which their tank operates optimally. When I averaged out all of the numbers the values were pretty close to those of NSW. Alk was 8.19, Ca 419. Mg 1361, NO3 18.77, PO4 .18, Sr 8.6 and temp 77.

Yes, it's okay, but I don't care.

Give me a good explanation for this ratio and I will think about it. I think it is irrelevant, humbug.

 

[Reefahholic]

I think there are different ways to run reef tanks and they may be such different that they are really hard to compare.


This doesn't make sense when nutrients are in surplus. Nitrate levels of a few ppm are already so high that ratios don't matter any more, it is just more than enough, the uptake is saturated.

It is like putting a huge table with food in front of you. Can you eat more just because there is more food?


I have always used urea because it is a non-toxic form of ammonia. There seem to be some other reduced nitrogen compounds, some amino acids, that give an even better effect, at least in combination.

We (Tropic Marin) have just released a product that supplies fine water insoluble phosphate particles. That is my preferred phosphate supply. I am happy that I found it.

Why don't you do it like Claude Schuhmacher recommends in the video? Look at the corals, the corals don't lie.

At the moment I don't have any target levels. I didn't have nitrate target concentrations the last 20 years, only observed phosphate. At the moment I largely ignore any parameters and don't test. I just want to watch, observe, see what is happening without even being influenced by some parameters I may have found.

In my eyes preset "target levels" is the wrong approach. Look what works, and when you think it is good, these are your target levels. Corals don't lie.

If you ask me for the concentrations I would recommend, 0.1 to 0.15 ppm phosphate, and just ignore nitrate, it is not important. Dose trace elements in certain ratios, try to achieve nitrogen limitation.

Well if you ever feel like you’ve found the magic numbers from visual observations, please do report back here and tag me.

I do agree that PO4 around 0.1-0.15 ppm is an excellent place to be. I’ve been running close to that lately. This tank seems to get ***** with anything under .08 ppm.

I may try to revisit lower nitrogen levels to see if I can appreciate any differences at all.

Glenn Fong also running a lower NO3 level with pretty amazing growth.

 

[Reefahholic]

Yes, it's okay, but I don't care.

Give me a good explanation for this ratio and I will think about it. I think it is irrelevant, humbug.

HaHa ask Claude when you speak to him.

 

[Hans-Werner]

HaHa ask Claude when you speak to him.

Ok, I will. I know Claude and I think I guess how it will look like.

... quite similar to yours, "I have tested hundred of tanks ...".

 

[Reefahholic]

Ok, I will. I know Claude and I think I guess how it will look like.

... quite similar to yours, "I have tested hundred of tanks ...".

He’s certainly tested a lot!

I haven’t tested them, but I’ve looked at all the tests on a daily basis.

 

[Reef Psychology]

I’ve already calculated all of the RC TOTM’s to get an average.

Also looked at Mike Paletta’s Master’s write up, and averaged those.

I have data from multiple systems dating back at least 8-10 years. I’ve found what works best for my systems, but I always enjoy looking and learning about systems that are much different than mine. I also like sharing information with those likeminded individuals who are seriously looking for answers. My reef is doing well at the 50-100:1 ratio, but it could always be improved if I learn new information. Like Dr. Balling mentioned…if Nitrogen is hitting saturation at 2-3 ppm the rest is just excess.

Excess Nitrogen could be slowing growth. It may not be doing anything at all. Or…it could be feeding Vibrio bacteria, Spionid worms, and Vermetid snails. Who knows?

Would love to see this data. Still, if it isn’t randomized and blind it can still be biased.

Can tell me what measurement you used as your criteria? Algae per square inch? Color and consistency of algae?

 

[djf91]

This is off Mike’s write up “Tank Parameters Of Some Masters.”

Tank Parameters Of Some Masters

Tank Parameters Of Some Masters To this day one of the most frequently asked questions I get, and actually that many “old time hobbyists” get is “How do I get rid of the algae in my tank. My first question then is “what are the parameters of...

www.reef2reef.com

Look at the averaged ratios, it’s at 100:1

When you look at all of the numbers in each of these tanks, to be honest not much stands out, other than each of these individuals runs his tank his own way and each has found the sweet spot at which their tank operates optimally. When I averaged out all of the numbers the values were pretty close to those of NSW. Alk was 8.19, Ca 419. Mg 1361, NO3 18.77, PO4 .18, Sr 8.6 and temp 77.

I thought NSW was close to undetectable for nutrients?

 

[Dburr1014]

I thought NSW was close to undetectable for nutrients?

It is, but we could never achieve that in our homes. Undetectable but also unlimited.(to an extent)

 

[Garf]

Algae colour is a very poor indicator of water parameters when they are not limiting. From my old tank, one of these turf scrubber screens is from 60 ppm N03, 1+ Ppm PO4, the other is from 8 ppm N03. 0.17 ppm PO4.

 

[djf91]

It is, but we could never achieve that in our homes. Undetectable but also unlimited.(to an extent)

Unlimited undetectable?

 

[Dburr1014]

Unlimited undetectable?

That should read "unlimited near undetectable".
Less than .1ppm of both.

 

[djf91]

That should read "unlimited near undetectable".
Less than .1ppm of both.

Why can’t this be achieved in the home aquarium?

 

[Dburr1014]

Why can’t this be achieved in the home aquarium?

Being that close to zero and having enough for coral?
It would have to be on a constant drip if you can calculate how much you need at any given time.
Day to night are completly different needs.
Nobody has done it yet and there are a lot smarter people in the hobby than me.

 

[Reefahholic]

I thought NSW was close to undetectable for nutrients?

It is, but we’re talking about the established Ocean, which is extremely abundant with every variety of food versus our tanks which are like a Ghetto.

 

[Reefahholic]

Algae colour is a very poor indicator of water parameters when they are not limiting. From my old tank, one of these turf scrubber screens is from 60 ppm N03, 1+ Ppm PO4, the other is from 8 ppm N03. 0.17 ppm PO4.

This is the kinda Data I love to see and the reason why I started this thread. IMO, the algae on the right looks healthier. Now I’m curious the parameters of that one?

Now we need people to post pictures of corals in different NO3 and PO4 levels. Although that is very tricky as I was looking through my pics a lot of them were 4-8 weeks results of what really happened prior. So if somebody has a stable tank that has been at the same nutrient levels for months that would be great data I’d imagine. Of course this will never paint the entire picture due to what the chemistry actually was during that time, but maybe it will give us some hints as to what 20-60 ppm nitrogen levels may look like or the effects it has on the corals.

 

[Reefahholic]

Why can’t this be achieved in the home aquarium?

Let’s say you want to run at 1 : .01 N : P in a home aquarium and keep Tenuis in the system, and it’s only 1 year started with dry rock. All frags debased and deplugged. Barebottom. How do you think the corals will tolerate?