Noob question about trace elements

[Auquanut]

I have a 125 gallon mixed reef that has been running for about 14 months. As the size and number of LPS and SPS coral increases, so does the tanks demand for calcium and alkalinity. Most posts I see say that if you do regular water changes, the trace elements will be replenished with the new water. (I use Fritz) Here's my question. If I do a 25% water change weekly, Am I not only replenishing 25% of the depleted trace elements? leaving the tank as a whole still lower than it should be? And over time, wouldn't the that deficiency be compounded? I have read that trace element consumption follows calcium consumption. My tank currently uses 80 mg calcium per day. I have a largish birds nest that recently started receding. It got to the point that I thought I would soon loose it. On the advice of my LFS, I started dosing Auquavitro Fuel (only using about 1/2 recomended dosage). The turnaround was immediate and dramatic. What do others do to keep trace elements in line without testing for EVERYTHING?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Fuel is food , not trace elements , minerals.

 

[Auquanut]

Also contains 13 mineral/elements.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Also contains 13 mineral/elements.

Like our food does.

 

[Auquanut]

So, no need to supplement trace elements as calcium consumption increases?

 

[Billdogg]

IMHO, you should never dose anything that you cannot accurately test for. Dosing without testing will almost certainly eventually lead to an accumulation of whatever it is you are dosing that might (can/will) lead to problems. Stick to regular water changes and dosing of Calcium/Alkalinity/Magnesium and you will be just fine.

 

[ZoWhat]

So you have 70+ elements in SW

the big 4 are magnesium, calcium, alkalinity (carbonate) and the much forgotten potassium element

Once you get past the "big 4" elements the rest are mostly less than 1 or 2 ppm

I saw this at an exhibit: take a regular mayonnaise jar filled with sugar granules. If one of those individual granules was RED and the rest white.....the red singular granule is 1ppm

So all these "trace elements" that are less than 1ppm.....and just think how small the amounts are when going about the mayonnaise jar rxa.e above. You should trust in your Frtiz salt to keep up with those tinie tiny trace elements

Test the PPM column in this chart:
http://liquidminerals.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/seawater_analysis.jpg

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

So, no need to supplement trace elements as calcium consumption increases?

Dose the big three. Two actually as it turns out , and most of the two contain enough mag. And curiously other trace elements. Most salt mixes actually have more of them than needed do the same reason.
Next thing is , even biologists are skeptical as to what elements truely are needed. Add that to what comes in a good varied diet.
Similar to our human vitamin supplements. It really may not be a need.
If you really did see improvement in coral with the addition of the fuel ,by all means keep using it. But it could be the other stuff in it too. Aminos. It’s a basic building block. For everything. So you could have had low bacteria in the water and you just fed it. Making th me coral happy as it actually may feed in that. It could be the aminos were a perfect food for the coral. And yea. It could be it was an element the coral was missing.
That’s the hard part. What was it?
It’s really how anecdotal evidence happens.

Neat stuff really.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

So you have 70+ elements in SW

the big 4 are magnesium, calcium, alkalinity (carbonate) and the much forgotten potassium element

Once you get past the "big 4" elements are mostly less than 1 or 2 ppm

I saw this at an exhibit: take a regular mayonnaise jar filled with sugar granules. If one of those individual granules was RED and the rest white.....the red singular granule is 1ppm

So all these "trace elements" are less than 1ppm....many much much less than 1ppm.

Trust your Frtiz salt to keep up with those tinie tiny trace elements

Test the PPM column in this chart:
http://liquidminerals.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/seawater_analysis.jpg

One thing I did notice switching to the balling salts for dosing , was coloration and corraline algae growth. Even though the measured levels of the big three stayed the same , corraline algae , only pink), took off. zoas that were red and other corals with brighter colors , took on a ruddy tone. A couple dormant algae (dictoya notably )took off.
So clearly there is something to say for the levels of odd elements. Naturally, that would require a LOT of testing. Just not into it.

 

[Auquanut]

Awesome reply saltyfilmfolks! Clears up my confusion about how partial water changes can keep trace elements in check. For now I plan to keep up the 1/2 dose of Fuel as long as I'm seeing results. By the way, it seems to me that there is better coloration in most of my other corals as well.

 

[mclark452]

You will never replace all your trace elements by simple water changes unless you are changing out large percentages of water regularly. I guess its possible with small/ nano tanks but less likely as the tank sizes increase. Enter the ICP test. Now you have access to testing for all kinds of elements (trace). It takes 2 minutes to collect some samples, not a lot of effort or actual testing. So you can get an idea of your trace consumption trends over a few tests. In the long run, its cheaper than buying all the salt you would need to maintain larger systems. And another note....most salts are deficient in something right out of the bag.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Awesome reply saltyfilmfolks! Clears up my confusion about how partial water changes can keep trace elements in check. For now I plan to keep up the 1/2 dose of Fuel as long as I'm seeing results. By the way, it seems to me that there is better coloration in most of my other corals as well.

Just out of curiosity, what salt do you use and are you dosing the big three? Where do your nutrient numbers sit. High med low , uLNS?

 

[Auquanut]

So I went to the ICP website. Totally lost. How does it work, and what does it cost?

 

[Ron Reefman]

And just to present the other side of this discussion, some reefers do very few or no water changes. I had a 400+ gallon system (180g DT and a 75g DT both attached to a 180g sump/refugium). For about 7 years I only did a handful of 25g to 35g water changes. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is the way to go. I'm just saying that in MY system it worked well. But I had a big DSB, a huge refugium and I fed heavily. I only dosed Ca, alk and Mg. I had huge lps and sps colonies and lots of healthy fish and a wide variety of other inverts. I'd still have that system if the back glass of the 180g tank hadn't developed a leak at the bottom glass 3' in from either end!

P1060001R1 by Ron Lindensmith, on Flickr

 

[mclark452]

So I went to the ICP website. Totally lost. How does it work, and what does it cost?

Average test is around $40...I recommend ATI. You get the test, take your samples, create an account, send them off and in about 2 wks your results will post to your account. Along with recommendations on what to adjust.

 

[Auquanut]

Just out of curiosity, what salt do you use and are you dosing the big three? Where do your nutrient numbers sit. High med low , uLNS?

Using Fritz. Autodosing 2 part. alk 9.0, calc 450.
Mag seems to slowly rise without dosing yet. (mixed up and ready to go)
NO3 20ppm and slowly dropping.
PO4 .03ish.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Using Fritz. Autodosing 2 part. alk 9.0, calc 450.
Mag seems to slowly rise without dosing yet. (mixed up and ready to go)
NO3 20ppm and slowly dropping.
PO4 .03ish.

Thanks. Interesting.

And mag is the most common test error. Fwiw.

 

[Bob Weigant]

I’ll put a spin on this conversation in saying I only test for alk on a regular basis. My tank does just fine with water changes and fuel. I don’t chase all the numbers and as long as my corals look good and are growing I don’t trip. My thoughts are get as much advise as you can and find what works for you.

 

[Auquanut]

Average test is around $40...I recommend ATI. You get the test, take your samples, create an account, send them off and in about 2 wks your results will post to your account. Along with recommendations on what to adjust.

Thanks. I'll give it a try.

 

[Auquanut]

And just to present the other side of this discussion, some reefers do very few or no water changes. I had a 400+ gallon system (180g DT and a 75g DT both attached to a 180g sump/refugium). For about 7 years I only did a handful of 25g to 35g water changes. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is the way to go. I'm just saying that in MY system it worked well. But I had a big DSB, a huge refugium and I fed heavily. I only dosed Ca, alk and Mg. I had huge lps and sps colonies and lots of healthy fish and a wide variety of other inverts. I'd still have that system if the back glass of the 180g tank hadn't developed a leak at the bottom glass 3' in from either end!

DSB?