Nothing "Hard" Survives in my Tank!!!

[gbru316]

Also a good point, I’ve helped jf out a couple times at his place and talked with quite a few other coral farmers. Him and others whose entire livelihood depends on coral growth and coloration, yet they all tend to keep all at ~8.
If higher alk were truly advantageous and truly made corals grow faster, would these coral farms not all be running 12?

I feel like this high alkalinity method that I often see with newer/less experienced reefers is fed to them through some sort of product/advertising and is never really utilized by the leads in the industry. I have yet to come across anyone of note running an all that high, despite running other “iffy” methods such as monthly chemiclean dosing.

See my edit about Sanjay Joshi

 

[CrunchyBananas]

See my edit about Sanjay Joshi

I guess I never looked at his params but that’s the first time I’ve seen an alk potentially that high (as that’s a broad range) but you’re dead on with pointing out his nutrients necessary to be there.

 

[Pntbll687]

No I get that, I was just saying the amount of reagent in the syringe is 1ml when looking at the tip of the little nub and the measurement lines. If I pulled the plunger all the way back, it would have 1.8ml of reagent. Here's a picture of what I'm doing. You can see the little nub is right at the .1ml line, but the main part of the plunger is up past the top line. If I do it the other way, the plunger is way up at the top of the syringe like in the bottom picture.

Doing it either way I get the same reading--11.6 dkh

SO you're actually using more reagent than 1ml. The first seal above the nipple part should be at 0, not the nipple. You're alk may be higher than what that is reading.

Why not for funzies, just run the test the way the directions say to see what it says??

But I think nitrates are probably the issue. I have found the API test to read consistently when nitrates are above 10ppm. And for reading the color, it should be held across the color spectrum bands. The band that "disappears" is going to be the closest match to the nitrate level. I'm thinking nitrates are probably lower than 5ppm and dip close to zero, causing issues.

I would run the test as as directed by the manufacturer and get a baseline numbers again. Then mix some fresh saltwater and test that for alk, the numbers should be somewhat close to each other, I'd say within .5dkh.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

First off I don’t believe in water changes and have gotten way more growth without them . I dose everything

Lol believe in them, they do exist!

 

[paulgriffin971]

SO you're actually using more reagent than 1ml. The first seal above the nipple part should be at 0, not the nipple. You're alk may be higher than what that is reading.

Why not for funzies, just run the test the way the directions say to see what it says??

But I think nitrates are probably the issue. I have found the API test to read consistently when nitrates are above 10ppm. And for reading the color, it should be held across the color spectrum bands. The band that "disappears" is going to be the closest match to the nitrate level. I'm thinking nitrates are probably lower than 5ppm and dip close to zero, causing issues.

I would run the test as as directed by the manufacturer and get a baseline numbers again. Then mix some fresh saltwater and test that for alk, the numbers should be somewhat close to each other, I'd say within .5dkh.

I did that. Doing it either way comes out with the same result--11.6 dkh.

I think i understand what others are talking about with regard to alkalinity vs phosphates and nitrates. High DKH needs to be matched by ultra low phosphates and nitrates. Lower dkh needs to be matched with higher phosphates and nitrates.

Have I got that right or have I got it backwards?

 

[CrunchyBananas]

I did that. Doing it either way comes out with the same result--11.6 dkh.

I think i understand what others are talking about with regard to alkalinity vs phosphates and nitrates. High DKH needs to be matched by ultra low phosphates and nitrates. Lower dkh needs to be matched with higher phosphates and nitrates.

Have I got that right or have I got it backwards?

Not quite, flip that, high alk needs high nutrients, low alk is better for low nutrients. You can think of it as fueling different growth, nutrients for skin and polyps alk and calcium for skeleton. If your alk is too high with low nutrients, the skeleton can put pace the skin growth, thus “burnt tips” with the skeleton poking out. It’s about finding that balance for balanced growth.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

I think water changes just causes too many issues. Change your temperature which messes with corals, changes to alk, calcium in the water, corals love stability.

Why would any of that be different than what your system is running, that doesn't make any sense

 

[paulgriffin971]

Not quite, flip that, high alk needs high nutrients, low alk is better for low nutrients. You can think of it as fueling different growth, nutrients for skin and polyps alk and calcium for skeleton. If your alk is too high with low nutrients, the skeleton can put pace the skin growth, thus “burnt tips” with the skeleton poking out. It’s about finding that balance for balanced growth.

OK got it. I'll sit back and wait a few weeks to see what happens. Chalk this one up to another attempt

 

[Reef Labs Inc Verified Sponsor]

Water Parameters--steady for the past several months:
Mg 1380
Ca 600
Alk 12.1
PH 8.2
Phos 0.15
Nitrate 5.0
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Temperature 78 night / 79 day
Salinity 34 to 35ppm

If your Ca is actually at or near 600, that will certainly cause problems for many or most species of stony corals. I would suggest lowering Ca close to natural seawater levels. Likewise, do an ICP test to find out the concentrations of your other macro, minor and trace elements. It is well worth the time to start with the foundation, which is the elemental composition of the water and pH. Your pH looks fine, but judging by the high Ca, you may have other water composition issues.

 

[paulgriffin971]

So here's another update on my attempts at growing anything stony. When I started this thread about two weeks ago, the red digitata was about 50% killed off and there was only 2 little splotches of white on the montipora. Well, here there are today dying off just like everything else I've tried. And these are two of the hardiest corals Ive been told will take a lot to kill them. I say HA!!!----just leave it to me

I did send off a ICP test to ATI so hopefully the results will post between now and monday.

I just continue to amaze myself that I can put a coral in, have absolutely stable parameters, do everything everyone does themselves to get things growing, follow the acclimation to a T, and I kill it off in 10 days. There just HAS to be something.....

 

[CrunchyBananas]

So here's another update on my attempts at growing anything stony. When I started this thread about two weeks ago, the red digitata was about 50% killed off and there was only 2 little splotches of white on the montipora. Well, here there are today dying off just like everything else I've tried. And these are two of the hardiest corals Ive been told will take a lot to kill them. I say HA!!!----just leave it to me

I did send off a ICP test to ATI so hopefully the results will post between now and monday.

I just continue to amaze myself that I can put a coral in, have absolutely stable parameters, do everything everyone does themselves to get things growing, follow the acclimation to a T, and I kill it off in 10 days. There just HAS to be something.....

Is that a tube anemone near them? That’ll definitely kill them.

 

[ilyad]

I have a few items I have noticed, but also most of the stuff that has already been mentioned.

First, I do think your Alk and Ca are on the high end. Keep in mind, that there is a workable range, but when you are on the very high end of it, its possible that any other small fluctuations can upset the coral. And stony corals are finicky, small negative swing takes a really long time to recover.

I also see that you are using a large skimmer, bio pelets, carbon, and GFO. All of those combined are very likely stripping your water of both nutrients as well as trace elements. That can be made worse too if you do not do water changes, especially if the 2 part you are dosing does not have those (most dont). I know you've tried to dose multiple things, but unless you are able to test for those specific elements, blind dosing can either not give enough, or over dose (both are not ideal).

Here is what I would try, changing one or two things only at once, and slowly. Start by lowering your Alk and Ca by not dosing, natural uptake should reduce it slowly (if its dropping quickly, then reduce the dosing amount). Get your params closer to NSW levels or just slightly higher. Best bet is to get it closest to what water you use for water changes (if you ever need to do water changes, then your tank water is close to your new water). If its not dropping without any dosing, then you may need to do some water changes to reduce it. Keep testing as you lower these, because its possible that once its lower in the sweet spot, your coral growth may explode and start uptaking Alk and Ca much faster, and if you dont catch it, it will drop too low.

Next, I would reduce the amount of chemical filtration slowly and wait for things to stabilize. Most people get away with only running a skimmer. Others with skimmer and some carbon. If you're getting high Nitrates and Phosphates, its possible youre overfeeding or dumping too much trace stuff that is not take up by fish and coral. So play with that a little. What may be happening here is too much stuff going in and then you're having to take it out. And unless you're religiously consistent, that would cause swings up and down occasionally, and reduce stability. My goal is always to balance my feeding so that skimmer, filter floss, and some carbon can handle whatever I throw at the tank. Plus it makes it easier to upkeep.

You can choose not to do water changes (I have ran my tank before for a year with no water changes) but then keep note of trace elements. I found Seachem Reef Plus and Trace to be spectacular. Just those two plus 2 part dosing of ESV and no water changes worked well for me. I only dosed half the recommended amount of the Seachem. Then as you get more coral and colonies grow in, you can increase to full strength slowly.

Generally, I try to follow the KISS approach -- keep it simple stupid. I found when I stick to only a few dosing items (Seachem stuff I mentioned), 2 part, skimmer, and carbon things tend to do well. When I get fancy with other dosing supplements, all sorts of coral foods, various filtration additions, it goes to ****. I am just not consistent enough to keep those always operating as they should, and that always leads to something coming out of whack. Its also too easy to fall for all these "miracle solutions" with so many being out and available. I know Im guilty of that. As we speak, I am battling cyano in one of my tanks because I tried to feed some coral extra stuff and threw my Nitrate/Phosphates out of whack.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

I've thought about doing no water changes but haven't bit the bullet. I would figure that fresh water is getting in there via the top-off system anyway, so what's the point right? I use a 50 gallon RV tank in an upstairs closet and ran RO tubing to a float in the sump. Fill the tank about once every 2 weeks with fresh RODI water. Adjsut the salinity with a cup or two of salt in a pitcher of RODI and then slowy put inot the sump near the overflow.

Maybe I'll stop the water change this month--I haven;t done one since July 3rd.

I find it very funny that not 1 person commented about this!!!!!! What do you mean you adjust salinity with a cup or 2 of salt mixed with rodi and add to sump area to adjust salinity. WHY WOULD YOU HAVE TO DO THIS ?!?!? WHAT WOULD CAUSE THIS? My tank has been at 35 for the past six months never having to adjust anything because I have an auto top off so I’m not sure what you’re doing and this could be an issue as far as stability along with many other things you have going on like your alkalinity and calcium being way way too high and your nutrients being way way too low

 

[CrunchyBananas]

I find it very funny that not 1 person commented about this!!!!!! What do you mean you adjust salinity with a cup or 2 of salt mixed with rodi and add to sump area to adjust salinity. WHY WOULD YOU HAVE TO DO THIS ?!?!? WHAT WOULD CAUSE THIS? My tank has been at 35 for the past six months never having to adjust anything because I have an auto top off so I’m not sure what you’re doing and this could be an issue as far as stability along with many other things you have going on like your alkalinity and calcium being way way too high and your nutrients being way way too low

I straight up missed that, salinity adjustments should be saved for water changes, and never dump salt straight into the tank. This could definitely contribute to instability causing coral death

 

[((FORDTECH))]

I straight up missed that, salinity adjustments should be saved for water changes, and never dump salt straight into the tank. This could definitely contribute to instability causing coral death

I’m more concerned about it seems like how frequently he hast to do this sounds like he does it all the time and I’m not understanding why we need to be adding salt once every other week like this

 

[CrunchyBananas]

I’m more concerned about it seems like how frequently he hast to do this sounds like he does it all the time and I’m not understanding why we need to be adding salt once every other week like this

Right, I'm thinking perhaps a drifting salinity tester straying from calibration.

 

[ilyad]

I’m more concerned about it seems like how frequently he hast to do this sounds like he does it all the time and I’m not understanding why we need to be adding salt once every other week like this

Right, I'm thinking perhaps a drifting salinity tester straying from calibration.

After re reading it a few times... I suspect the water changes are done by removing sw and RO topping it off. Then adding salt to the tank to adjust for salinity. If thats the case, then no wonder water changes mess his tank up! That would cause the salinity to tank, and then to climb.

Edit: went back and read again... water changes are done with sw and mixed in a brute. So Im not sure anymore why more salt is being added.

 

[Tiki_Reef]

I would say go back to water changes to supply you major and minor elements get the Cal down to 450ish and the Alk to 8.5-9 slowly, stop the dosing because you obviously do not have the uptake to necessitate the amount you are dosing. I also seen a lot of percipient in your sump which means your Cal and Alk could be higher than what your test results are showing. I keep sps in my 10 gallon nano and my Calcium is 420-435 Alk is dead on at 9 and I have plenty of sps growth.

 

[paulgriffin971]

I find it very funny that not 1 person commented about this!!!!!! What do you mean you adjust salinity with a cup or 2 of salt mixed with rodi and add to sump area to adjust salinity. WHY WOULD YOU HAVE TO DO THIS ?!?!? WHAT WOULD CAUSE THIS? My tank has been at 35 for the past six months never having to adjust anything because I have an auto top off so I’m not sure what you’re doing and this could be an issue as far as stability along with many other things you have going on like your alkalinity and calcium being way way too high and your nutrients being way way too low

Not too much. I mean I adjust it from like 34.5 to 35 with this method. It's for micromental adjustments as the skimmer removes the salt water in the skimmate.

 

[paulgriffin971]

OK folks, after nearly a month, here is the ICP test results. I see nothing that is out of the ordinary other than the nitrate level that shows 236.7 mg/l which equates to 236ppm. I wrote ATI back because if the nitrates are 236, then everything in my tank would be dead. My fish and soft corals are thriving, and my ATI test shows nitrates at 5. SO...their test results are WAY off. Most everything else seems legit.

Also, the RODI test shows high silicon. I think that might be due to the DI resin in the RODI system.

Still scratching my head....