Nutrient control question......

[Gwitness]

I'm just curious......how hard is it to keep a successful reef by just good skimming, live rock, and of course water changes??! I have tried nopox dosing, gfo, etc....and I'm just curious how hard is it to run a successful reef ...fully stocked by just good skimming and consistent water changes??? I just always see everyone running a lot of the other things or carbon dosing to help out, which I know they work, but I was just wondering if keeping it as simple as possible would work and how well? Obviously different tanks mean different size water changes and skimmers....but would a fully stocked reef have to have gfo or carbon dose done on it to keep up with nutrient levels? I am currently nopox dosing and I'm debating just ending it and just let my skimmer do the work and do my weekly or bi weekly water changes....thoughts? Opinions? Experiences? Thank you!

 

[Reefer with SeaHorses]

I have had my tank set up for, lmt, 6 years or so. Changes included moving to bigger tanks, adding more live rock and I have even moved the whole set up from TN to ND to FL to TN back to ND and finally back home to TN last year- over a 3 year period. I've never -knock on wood and thank the Good Lord -dosed any of those things. For my 70g, I do a 5gal change weekly and the 3rd or 4th week a 10 to 15 g change. I keep Prime just in case and on rare occasions, once or twice a year, use that little white packet that you recharge with bleach.

Long -short. Skimmer and water changes is all I have done. No problems yet. I do have the bottles: Ions, 84, Fuel, and a host of others. Supplements and nutrients for fish and corals as well as assorted foods.

 

[Gwitness]

I have had my tank set up for, lmt, 6 years or so. Changes included moving to bigger tanks, adding more live rock and I have even moved the whole set up from TN to ND to FL to TN back to ND and finally back home to TN last year- over a 3 year period. I've never -knock on wood and thank the Good Lord -dosed any of those things. For my 70g, I do a 5gal change weekly and the 3rd or 4th week a 10 to 15 g change. I keep Prime just in case and on rare occasions, once or twice a year, use that little white packet that you recharge with bleach.

Long -short. Skimmer and water changes is all I have done. No problems yet. I do have the bottles: Ions, 84, Fuel, and a host of others. Supplements and nutrients for fish and corals as well as assorted foods.

Awesome to hear!!!!!! So do you run a Mixed reef?? Is it heavily stocked with fish? How often do you feed fish and corals? Sorry for all the questions just trying to understand a little more

 

[brandon429]

My vase is nine years running like that currently
The key is just spot kill the occasional algae don't alter decent water params as a reaction to algae, this makes an indefinite lifespan reef tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm just curious......how hard is it to keep a successful reef by just good skimming, live rock, and of course water changes??! I have tried nopox dosing, gfo, etc....and I'm just curious how hard is it to run a successful reef ...fully stocked by just good skimming and consistent water changes??? I just always see everyone running a lot of the other things or carbon dosing to help out, which I know they work, but I was just wondering if keeping it as simple as possible would work and how well? Obviously different tanks mean different size water changes and skimmers....but would a fully stocked reef have to have gfo or carbon dose done on it to keep up with nutrient levels? capability to grow macroagae in refugiado my weekly or bi weekly water changes....thoughts? Opinions? Experiences? Thank you!

I added on things like GFO and growing macroalgae in refugia and carbon dosing over the years because I didn't find that the combination of just skimming and water changes worked well enough to satisfy me.

 

[brandon429]

And most people want a fish bioload I was able to forego it and still like the tank. I'm sure if I had a large tank water changes would be avoided to the point I would employ something to save work. Fish bioload downplayed helps tremendously

 

[Gwitness]

That is a good point about the fish bio load....I guess my thing is that I have been nopox dosing along with some gfo....I kept reducing gfo because phosphates were always reading 0....along with no pox I have been getting cyano but i have a ridiculous amount of flow in the tank and my nitrates are still reading 2.5-5 on salifert....just got me thinking that cyano was coming from nopox and got me thinking about stop doing it and just go back old school and water change only....I dunno what to do I guess because my reef is pretty packed with 15 fish in my 165 gallon

 

[robert]

I'm eight months into a 400g tank that runs pretty much the way you describe with some differences.

I run UV and DE/Carbon exclusively. My skimmer runs but produces nothing...just for oxygenation.

I recently added a small sulphur denitrator, but it runs behind, meaning that N still builds - just slower.

I started the tank on a base of dead rock, with a moderate stock of fish, small anenomies, a large clam, and a cleaner shrimp - without a cycle - using prime and water changes. I now carry a fairly high fish load - have been building in my LPS, - euphilia, elegance, brains, zoas and am just now adding in the SPS to the high flow areas. Almost all corals are added as small, clean frags, I'm getting good growth and have not yet lost a coral. BTAs are growing well and splitting regularly - to the point where I need to start exporting.

I've settled into doing ~15gallon water changes weekly and a 40gallon monthly. With this my N which topped out at close to 100 has been slowly coming down to the 40 range. I only check salinity, temp, alk and nitrate.
I don't know P as I never look at it. The way the flow is setup I have no deutritus build up anywhere.

I only feed fish, never feed coral directly and use fairly clean foods. No dosing and no GFO.

I do have GFO in the sulphur denitrator, but it is never changed or added to - its part of the sulphur/iron autotrophic denitration system.

My idea is benthic autotrophs are ok to consume excess N and P. Using heterotropics bacteria for this is my opinion and experience dangerous.

As I said - the tank is very young - and success at this point is expected. How this setup fares over the long-haul will be the decider for me.

But no dosing - low carbon, low hetrotrophic bacteria, low deutritus. Routine water changes.

 

[DeniseAndy]

Really depends on the types of corals. My system is very simple. Skimmer, LR in sump, socks, UAS, Carbon and CaRx (this is used due to the clams and for my old sps). I would not even use Carbon if it were not for my chemical warfare in my tank. I do not dose anything and do water changes. Granted, it is a large system and I do have the apex with lighting and flow all set up and all that jaz. But as far as filtration itself, it is not high tech.

I do have a 40g running with skimmer and UAS and Chemipur Blue that is all. It is supporting sps and lps just fine. My 20g is a skimmer and carbon in a hob. This just houses some frags and one fish though.

I also think people have different ideas of successful. I know a person with a reef that housed some nice large lps colonies in a 45 or 55 for years with only HOB filters and water changes. If you have your animals growing and reproducing, you are doing well.

 

[Damon]

Hmm.. I agree with randy in that for me, I tried it, but it did not work to keep my levels low like I wanted..


But, I think a lot of it, like others mentioned, is going to depend on you and exactly what you wish to accomplish with your system.. With feeding, water quality, etc.. If you don't mind high nutrient levels, your original water quality is good, and are very careful if you want coral, then, I have read it can be done. I've need personally "live" seen one, but anything is possible.. But it will require a lot from you as the owner and maintainer of the system..

 

[Gwitness]

Thanks for all the responses and in depth details about how they go about running their successful systems.....this might be dumb but I guess my biggest issue as a reefer is finding out what I am going for.....I mean I read and see what others keep their tanks at but I get so confused on if I have too many nutrients or not....I keep everything extremely steady (alk,ca,mg,salinity,temp)..water changes every week....but my corals just never grow and lps look good but don't really grow and sps are just whatever looking and definitely don't grow.....try to keep phosphates below 0.05 using Hannah and nitrates are always around 5 or 10.....I started nopox dosing with gfo and gfo just drops phosphates to read 0 all the time so I took gfo offline and when I nopox dose it still keeps nitrates at 5 and have cyano coming in some places and I'm assuming because of the nopox.....I run radions gen 3s at 40% max and mostly 20k all day with whites peaking at 40% I think so it's just super annoying That I'm doing everything right and parameters are super consistent but it's like I still have no success haha I just don't get it!!! I guess I could add a lot more live rock in my sump possibly, I just hate getting all the detritus in the sump

 

[brandon429]

I would definitely run uv if I had a large setup and it would be pond rated. Vastly past the aquarium size needed then you have the choice to run intermittently or continual with reserve power they are ideal low maintenance cheats. Having a vastly oversized uv plumbed in whether it's on or not gives you instant power against dinoflagellates and cyano and many forms of algae that transit the water during one phase or another. Strong backup or preventative they are

 

[Gwitness]

I would definitely run uv if I had a large setup and it would be pond rated. Vastly past the aquarium size needed then you have the choice to run intermittently or continual with reserve power they are ideal low maintenance cheats. Having a vastly oversized uv plumbed in whether it's on or not gives you instant power against dinoflagellates and cyano and many forms of algae that transit the water during one phase or another. Strong backup or preventative they are

Okay great to know!! What brand or kind would you recommend....my tank is 165 gallons give or take

 

[brandon429]

Once I ran my grandmothers unused uv sterilizer for her 5K gallon koi pond on my 75 gallon tank, I used it to cheat burn (vs waiting for natural methods to produce same effect) a persistent cyano problem and it all I had to do was siphon it all out once, it couldn't rebound with the uv on.

They are are a total $$ luxury to have but if you have it well in my opinion that's money well spent. I believe it will not cure or prevent ich, but it absolutely will quell many other forms of tank invasion I've seen oversized uv simply cheat burn a tank to perfection. Nobody says they have to be 24x7 plumb them off if not needed, they are a ray gun of a cheat

True reef ones, emperor aquatics anything that's rated beyond your size tank as high $ as you'll go. The farther past the rating the better.


Robert many would write against instant cycling like that but it's absolutely a fact it can be done. That much life is certain inoculation of nitrifers and fuel for them, all you have to do is dilute and water change X weeks and it will for sure self cycle without a spike, offsetting with cheats like prime is fair game as well. It's better to have dynamic control over the type of cycle one wants than it is to pick arbitrary times for shrimp to rot in a tank.

 

[twilliard]

I would definitely run uv if I had a large setup and it would be pond rated. Vastly past the aquarium size needed then you have the choice to run intermittently or continual with reserve power they are ideal low maintenance cheats. Having a vastly oversized uv plumbed in whether it's on or not gives you instant power against dinoflagellates and cyano and many forms of algae that transit the water during one phase or another. Strong backup or preventative they are

Hi Brandon! @brandon429
I have always been sceptical of UV
You recommend UV but to what cost to the tank?
UV is a powerful source of light energy and wouldn't want to kill (sterilize ) my wanted organisms.
What's your thought on that?

 

[Gwitness]

I've heard mixed reviews on uv also but don't really know anything about them...My thing is I'm not trying to put a band aid on my nitrate issue which is only at 5 anyways...I want to actually have it under control if that makes any sense by water changes or another way of control...I'm not sure how uv will help that....maybe it will and I just don't understand how it will

 

[DeniseAndy]

Also playing into this if you are not getting thriving corals is not just water quality. You need the proper flow and light for the species. Plus the proper food. Corals do need food in the system.

If you are confident your parameters are in line and stable, I would play with lighting and flow a bit. Change one thing and a time and see how things improve/not improve. Feed your corals! Marine snow, phytoplankton, baby brine (artemia), other similar items.

Do you have any fish in the system? Corals do better with other animals.

Also consider the stocking of your tank. Is is too much? Can your filtration handle what you have? A 165 should be pretty stable, and lots of options of corals and fish.

It can be overwhelming seeing more established tanks and saying, maybe I want that, or that, or that. It is hard to narrow down what you like. That is why so many of us have multiple systems. It is sooooo adicting! Even saying that, you do need to decide what makes you happy and what you want to see day in and out. Color, movement, active, peaceful, GBR, Caribbean, Red Sea, drop off, lagoon, reef face, all this will help you figure out what corals you really like.

For instance, I had sps for years. I loved them to some extent, but decided I wanted movement. I fell for gorgonia types. For all my research, I had no idea what I was in for keeping gorgs. Eventually, nothing is left in my tank except gorgs, leathers, mushrooms, and anemones. Well, turns out, I love nems! I never had them in my sps for fear of moving and damaging corals. Now I get all that and more.

However, because I love lps corals like favia, platys, scolys, etc I had to set up a 40g to house these favorites. Do I wish I could house them in one tank? YES! But, it cannot happen. Trust me, I tried.

 

[brandon429]

UV is merely a luxury and isn't critical to any reef tank but they make some effects that many find worth it

Oversizing amplifies them


They can be an immense help as insurance against invasive dinos and other forms of invaders that plague tanks in many threads

It's for sure they could and do burn planktors but my counter call is pico reef aquarists commonly do 100% water changes and that's the same reset, freshly made sw has no planktors and with Uv some indeed can survive on floc that pass through unabated on a few rounds. Today's frozen and refrigerated stuff that's already dead still fills in

I too debate them in fish disease prevention just not algae, cyano and Dino prevention. On our nano-reef.com peroxide thread more than one entrant has bought them in reaction to hard dino invasions (polar express fifty watt uv on a nano lol) and we get results

They don't have to run continually. They can be a lifesaver when overdone and ready to go for sure, we get repeatable results with them
Merely $ luxury and good ones do cost a pretty penny

We used certified oversized and routinely bulb/sleeve serviced UV in our water feeds in a microbiology lab I worked in at a beef processing plant, for those I've actually seen pre/post cell counts and can verify they will certainly affect the water towards bio sterility but not pure, some always get through.

Floc is a powerful insulator for its riders and a component of our waters if sampled.



I don't own one now, they don't make uv small enough for pico reefs of micro size but if I had any sort of large tank investment for sure I would.

In my experience, other methods that strip the water worse than uv have no demonstrable effect on benthic diversity or coral/reef animal support in any way, in fact total export is purposely used in pico reef science to allow massive triple feeding which is why some pico reefs have better benthics than a five year running average reef

Spot feeding today's hq frozen and refrigerated feeds literally heterogenizes anyone's reef setting.

 

[Gwitness]

This is why I stopped nopox dosing just in case...should I stop or just continue going forward with it??

 

[robert]

You need control of nuitrients, but I'm more convinced that N is not the proper "knob". I've run systems with N up to 100 with no visible ill effects and have gotten into troble reading on systems reading solid 0 and everywhere else in between.

I do run a big UV - 120W 24/7. I too used to doubt its effectiveness....

If there is a cost to the tank - I don't recognize it. I don't know specifically what "wanted organisms" twillard is refering to, but I'm a reductionist by nature and shy away from things which are assumed to be important but that I cant identify.