Nutrients and the many ways you fight/control them!

[Wiskey]

If I keep my Nitrates up, around one or so I find that it naturally keeps Phosphate down, so much so that I was able to remove my reactor. To do that I added filter socks (everyone says they are NO3 factories) and change them out when they clog (every week or two). I run pO4 remover passively in the sump, 1/4 cup of the low capacity stuff changed monthly, and occasionally I dose a little NO3. I also use a skimmer, and I have some soft corals in what used to be a sump fuge section.

Whiskey

 

[vetteguy53081]

Algae scrubber is the best investment I have made with the best results with skimmer being 2nd in line

 

[phil bevilacqua]

Can you explain 'what' this is based on? Doesn't it depend on what other nutrient export methods you are using. I mean if you're using a GFO reactor, a denigrator, and algae refugium, a skimmer, biopellets and GAC - water changes may be inefficient. However, If you don't want to use those things, I think water changes are the 'most efficient'. But - the blanket statement I dont think holds true.

It’s true. It’s just simple math 10%to 20% water change once or twice a month will never keep your po3 po4 controlled. It’s just not enough. They do help some but mostly to replenish trace major and minor elements. Every tank is different, this is just my experience.

 

[MnFish1]

It’s true. It’s just simple math 10%to 20% water change once or twice a month will never keep your po3 po4 controlled. It’s just not enough. They do help some but mostly to replenish trace major and minor elements. Every tank is different, this is just my experience.

I agree with you. I never advocated any particular water change 'regimen'. But - to 'prove' that water changes are inefficient - you have to prove that for example GFO is 'more efficient'. If the answer is changing the GFO every week - my answer would be change 50 percent of the water every week x4. Just saying without defining what we're actually talking about - its impossible to say 'water changes are inefficient'. it always revolves around how much GFO or Chaeto or (insert your export method here) you're using or? If I changed 100% of the water in the tank - that would be much more effective in reducing Po4 than GFO - right?

 

[MnFish1]

It’s true. It’s just simple math 10%to 20% water change once or twice a month will never keep your po3 po4 controlled. It’s just not enough. They do help some but mostly to replenish trace major and minor elements. Every tank is different, this is just my experience.

PS - In my tank - I use carbon (GAC), biopellets (weaning them off) an algae reactor. Dont use GFO, etc. what is keeping my PO4 low..?

 

[phil bevilacqua]

Skimmer , algae scrubber , lots of rock and coral , GFO For emergencies on hand and I do water changes maybe every 3 months to suck up sand

 

[MnFish1]

Skimmer , algae scrubber , lots of rock and coral , GFO For emergencies on hand and I do water changes maybe every 3 months to suck up sand

Great - so I could conceivably say - you could get rid of your algae scrubber and GFO and do more water changes (high volume lower frequency). Could you ensure that that is 'less efficient' than what you're doing? Im asking - sincerely - not trying to just debate.... I personally - have had far more problems with dangerous swings when using GFO - than just ignoring

 

[phil bevilacqua]

PS - In my tank - I use carbon (GAC), biopellets (weaning them off) an algae reactor. Dont use GFO, etc. what is keeping my PO4 low..?

Ur tank might be running well. I don’t use GFO and I do water changes every 3 months to suck up sand and my po4 stays .04~.08, so what keeps mine low? Like I said every tank is different. If it works for you. Keep going. Lol enjoy it!

 

[EmptyWallet]

I would agree with the statement that water changes are the least efficient mode of nutrient export. For example, I just moved house and had not setup my chaeto reactor initially. I have 1000L / 200 GAL water volume. Phosphate tested 0.14 numbers I have never seen. I setup my chaeto, fired up the Kessil H380 and a week later phosphate down to 0.07. To do that via water changes would be 100GAL and $145 AUD not too mention a day or two of pumping RO. Same with nitrates. In the past a few days of NoPox dosing knocks it to zero - a minutes work.

 

[phil bevilacqua]

I agree with you. I never advocated any particular water change 'regimen'. But - to 'prove' that water changes are inefficient - you have to prove that for example GFO is 'more efficient'. If the answer is changing the GFO every week - my answer would be change 50 percent of the water every week x4. Just saying without defining what we're actually talking about - its impossible to say 'water changes are inefficient'. it always revolves around how much GFO or Chaeto or (insert your export method here) you're using or? If I changed 100% of the water in the tank - that would be much more effective in reducing Po4 than GFO - right?

Lol. Yes 100% would. The inefficiency comes from most water change schedule is 20% once a month. Small amount of GFO in reactor brings it way down over a few days and can maintain. Water change are big shocks to system if over 30% or so. You have to make sure Alk and temp are spot on. Standard water change schedule is not enough.... that’s all I’m saying,

 

[Luno]

Refugium, refugium and refugium

 

[MnFish1]

I would agree with the statement that water changes are the least efficient mode of nutrient export. For example, I just moved house and had not setup my chaeto reactor initially. I have 1000L / 200 GAL water volume. Phosphate tested 0.14 numbers I have never seen. I setup my chaeto, fired up the Kessil H380 and a week later phosphate down to 0.07. To do that via water changes would be 100GAL and $145 AUD not too mention a day or two of pumping RO. Same with nitrates. In the past a few days of NoPox dosing knocks it to zero - a minutes work.

If you changed 100% of your water your phosphate would have been reduced by 100 percent.

 

[MnFish1]

Lol. Yes 100% would. The inefficiency comes from most water change schedule is 20% once a month. Small amount of GFO in reactor brings it way down over a few days and can maintain. Water change are big shocks to system if over 30% or so. You have to make sure Alk and temp are spot on. Standard water change schedule is not enough.... that’s all I’m saying,

Thanks this was my point - the amount of water change/month was never defined. I have never heard that the usual water change is 20% once a month. I do agree with you though - that changing more frequently - the lower the 'shock' to the system. Take a hypothetical system where the water is changed 100%/day (some people do this in QT). assuming they are mixing their salt correctly - there should be no shock.

 

[phil bevilacqua]

Great - so I could conceivably say - you could get rid of your algae scrubber and GFO and do more water changes (high volume lower frequency). Could you ensure that that is 'less efficient' than what you're doing? Im asking - sincerely - not trying to just debate.... I personally - have had far more problems with dangerous swings when using GFO - than just ignoring

I don’t use GFO unless something crazy happens. My tank just runs pretty effortlessly, sometimes I have to dose nitrates to keep around 5-10 . I also feed heavy and my fish are pigs. Lol. The skimmer and scrubber are very efficient that’s why I don’t do water changes much. And big waterchanges can crash a tank. I’ve seen it happen. To much change at once especially if you use reef crystals or Red Sea pro. They mix around 11-12 dkh and my tank runs around 8.5-9 So if my Alk jumps to 10 some of my acros are dead. And my tank is 76-78 on a chiller my water is hot like 85-88 in garage. That would also cause to big a swing in temp. But that’s my tank. I like simple stability.

 

[phil bevilacqua]

Thanks this was my point - the amount of water change/month was never defined. I have never heard that the usual water change is 20% once a month. I do agree with you though - that changing more frequently - the lower the 'shock' to the system. Take a hypothetical system where the water is changed 100%/day (some people do this in QT). assuming they are mixing their salt correctly - there should be no shock.

Been in the hobby since 1986 and from what I’ve always been told at the fish store was 20-25% once a month. Hahahaaaa. Now I know what works and that’s different for every tank at different stages. Lol

 

[Punchanello]

Chaeto and a skimmer works for me, sometimes too well. I only really use water changes to dilute the build-up of other unwanted stuff like metals, detergents etc.

 

[EmptyWallet]

If you changed 100% of your water your phosphate would have been reduced by 100 percent.

I see the theoretical point you are trying to make, but we live in a physical world. 'm not sure how the theory that a 100% water change is the most efficient helps fellow reefers in this instance. A 100% w/c (if practical) would be the answer to almost every problem and it wouldn't be much of a forum. A 100% water change would have cost me 2x buckets of red sea salt = $300 AUD, 1000 litres of RO (takes a few days) and a full tear down of the tank as fish can't swim in the air. Then electricity cost of heating from 10 to 25 degrees celcius and and and... If I ran my H380 for 24 hours not 12 hours a day, then lets say I also get 0 phosphate. Would a jury of reasonable people agree that running the H380 longer is a more efficient way for me to have reduced my phosphates over a 100% water change? Efficient to me is measured in time, cost, effort, hassle, risk to livestock etc

 

[Proteus Meep]

I just use PolyFilter, live rock and weekly 10% water changes with a sand vacuum....keeping it simple

 

[just4plaay]

I do weekly water changes (about 11%), ....

11%!!! You're crazy, needs to be at least 12%, maybe 11.5% [emoji847]. Sorry, the number was just too precise and I couldn't help it.

Personally I don't feel I get much from water changes for export other than cleaning the sand bed. Still do a monthly water change but that's more for adding than subtracting. Relying on socks (changed every three to four days, skimmer, and carbon/gfo when necessary right now. I've looked into dosing but haven't seen numbers that warrant it yet. My tank is very lightly stocked with fish though and I'm working on changing that. If the numbers climb I may start dosing to get bacteria for filter feeders to munch on.

 

[Islandreeftank]

I have used bio-pellets for a few years with good results I use the all in one, with over sized skimming and water changes. I am surprised more people do not use them. Although I also use the old Reef Dynamic reactor which was in my opinion one of the best made for BP.