Nutrients and the many ways you fight/control them!

What methods do you use to control nutrients in your reef? Choose all that apply!

  • Skimmer

    Votes: 808 89.1%
  • Chaeto Alage Export

    Votes: 363 40.0%
  • Alage Scrubber

    Votes: 76 8.4%
  • Refugium

    Votes: 421 46.4%
  • Media in Reactors

    Votes: 228 25.1%
  • Vodka Dosing

    Votes: 87 9.6%
  • Controlled Feeding

    Votes: 203 22.4%
  • Bio-Pellets

    Votes: 48 5.3%
  • Nitrate Reactor

    Votes: 16 1.8%
  • Water Changes

    Votes: 655 72.2%
  • Other please post in thread

    Votes: 30 3.3%
  • Filter Socks

    Votes: 408 45.0%

  • Total voters
    907
I see the theoretical point you are trying to make, but we live in a physical world. 'm not sure how the theory that a 100% water change is the most efficient helps fellow reefers in this instance. A 100% w/c (if practical) would be the answer to almost every problem and it wouldn't be much of a forum. A 100% water change would have cost me 2x buckets of red sea salt = $300 AUD, 1000 litres of RO (takes a few days) and a full tear down of the tank as fish can't swim in the air. Then electricity cost of heating from 10 to 25 degrees celcius and and and... If I ran my H380 for 24 hours not 12 hours a day, then lets say I also get 0 phosphate. Would a jury of reasonable people agree that running the H380 longer is a more efficient way for me to have reduced my phosphates over a 100% water change? Efficient to me is measured in time, cost, effort, hassle, risk to livestock etc

By the way you're correct here - 100% water changes (unless you had a jar reef like @brandon429 has created) would be unworkable) - However as you go from the concept of 100% water changes to no water changes there is a point where they will be less efficient than other methods (i.e. no water changes is 100% ineffective at removing nutrients).

IMO - the statement 'water changes are inefficient' is just as unhelpful to fellow reefers - if the degree of water changes is not defined - its just a 'statement' My statement proves that at least one point - water changes (i.e. the unworkable 100%) are the most efficient. At what point do they cross the line?

BTW the same thing works for GFO algae scrubbers and skimmers. To decide which is 'most efficient' you need (IMHO) to define how much GFO, etc you're using. I will say - the people using automatic water changers that change perhaps xxx cc every several minutes without having to do any physical work (except make up salt every now and then ) would suggest they are the most efficient. I have no reason to support water changes btw. I just think its an interesting concept.
 
Currently skimmer, water changes, and passively running phosguard in a mesh bag in the sump. Tank is roughly 18 months old and it's not enough to keep up. My previous tank had a refugium and that's my current plan right now. I'll use a section of my sump that's currently empty to hopefully knock out my algae problems.
 
Yep I agree. but - when I do water changes - I suck up the detritus from the sand and rock (as much as possible). I also do 40 gallon water changes every 2 weeks on my 130 gallon tank - which means that all of the 'bad things' decrease by 30 percent every 2 weeks. I just didn't know where you got the statement that 'water changes are the least efficient"

I do water changes, but the main purpose is trace element replacement, and a chance to vacuum a little, rather than for nutrient export. Yes, it helps... but... In my experience, an average of 10-15% per week is not enough to export all the nastiness that has been produced. It continues to build up and cause issues over time. Other methods have to be in place to take care of it.
 
IMO - the statement 'water changes are inefficient' is just as unhelpful to fellow reefers.

I definitely disagree with this statement. New reefers should understand: the benefits of elements added far outweigh the benefits of what is being removed. Its being diluted with each change so it takes several water changes to really bring those numbers down.

For example, if they had 60ppm of nitrate it would take 18 water changes to bring that number to 1ppm.

x1lIWnX.jpg


Even if you did a 50% water change, it would take ~6 water changes.

SsFylEi.jpg


A major variable in all this is Nitrates are CONSTANTLY being added to the tank in between water changes. (Not to mention the garbage built up in the sand/rock that may continue to break down.) So until this new reefer understands how to mitigate what they're adding... these numbers just get harder to control.

Now, imagine this new reefer continues to overfeed and adds another 10ppm of nitrates in the weeks leading up to the next water change. It would take ~12-22 water changes just to get to 40ppm (~46 changes to hit a even 40) And after that... its an just an infinite loop of 40ppm.

7CY5bwZ.jpg

*Total water volume doesn't effect any of these examples (except in terms of things like time investment.) These numbers only change based off the % of water being changed out, and the starting nitrate ppm.


Basically, if the core problem isn't addressed, these water changes aren't going to be much help. If anything, they're just keeping people in an endless loop of nutrient issues. (And that's assuming they're disciplined enough to keep up with a routine water-change schedule, to begin with.)

That's why people say its an inefficient route for nutrient control. (Because it is :p ) I actually think its important for new reefers to know this, so they can address the bad habits that are usually the core of the issue in the first place.
 
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I definitely disagree with this statement. New reefers should understand: the benefits of elements added far outweigh the benefits of what is being removed. Its being diluted with each change so it takes several water changes to really bring those numbers down.

For example, if they had 60ppm of nitrate it would take 18 water changes to bring that number to 1ppm.

x1lIWnX.jpg


Even if you did a 50% water change, it would take ~6 water changes.

SsFylEi.jpg


A major variable in all this is Nitrates are CONSTANTLY being added to the tank in between water changes. (Not to mention the garbage built up in the sand/rock that may continue to break down.) So until this new reefer understands how to mitigate what they're adding... these numbers just get harder to control.

Now, imagine this new reefer continues to overfeed and adds another 10ppm of nitrates in the 2 weeks leading up to the next water change. It would take ~12-22 water changes just to get to 40ppm (~46 changes to hit a even 40) And after that... its an just an infinite loop of 40ppm.

7CY5bwZ.jpg

*Total water volume doesn't effect any of these examples (except in terms of things like time investment.) These numbers only change based off the % of water being changed out, and the starting nitrate ppm.


Basically, if the core problem isn't addressed, these water changes aren't going to be much help. If anything, they're just keeping people in an endless loop of nutrient issues. (And that's assuming they're disciplined enough to keep up with a routine water-change schedule, in the first place.)

That's why people say its an inefficient route for nutrient control. (Because they are :p ) I actually think its important for new reefers to know this, so they can address the bad habits that are usually the core of the issue in the first place.


We agree completely. Im not sure the point of your post. Obviously - in the hypothetical example you used above - you would need to do water changes more often than every 2 weeks - or more of a percentage every 2 weeks - or decrease nitrate production. Every nutrient export mechanism follows the same rules. If you double the Chaeto you may have less nitrate - but there will also be an eventual balance between input and export. That does not make water changes 'inefficient' - unless you define 'inefficient' compared to 'what'?
 
We agree completely. Im not sure the point of your post. Obviously - in the hypothetical example you used above - you would need to do water changes more often than every 2 weeks - or more of a percentage every 2 weeks - or decrease nitrate production. Every nutrient export mechanism follows the same rules. If you double the Chaeto you may have less nitrate - but there will also be an eventual balance between input and export. That does not make water changes 'inefficient' - unless you define 'inefficient' compared to 'what'?

Inefficient realative to almost every other form of nutrient reduction. GFO, phosphate-e, vinegar/vodka dosing, a well lit fuge... the list goes on and on.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think better habits should be the focus and things like GFO/vodka only used in a short term "emergency" basis... but either way, if habits DON'T shift than water changes are clearly an inefficient choice.
 
My 140G DT maintenance regime is fairly conventional. Skimmer, 20% WC roughly every two weeks. GFO & GAC reactors only run 4hrs a day.

Perhaps a bit less conventional:
a) 3 of the 4X8 marine pure blocks in sump.
b) Before each WC, I clamp a pump to the glass with a 4ft silicone hose and blast all my ~2" sand bed and rock. (ps, all my base rock sits on acrylic rod tripods)

Blasting the sand has always been a part of the routine. I'd never recommend this for a previously unmaintained sand bed.

Lastly, my earnest suggestion for anyone looking to upgrade beyond 100G system: plumb a 3/4 to 1" line to your mixing station & house sewer line if at all possible. Fast, easy WC are ones that get done regularly. Otherwise, choose a method (zeovit or other) that don't require WC.

Great post. I learned stuff.
 
I view my corals are part of the nutrient balance. What are we really talking about, keeping corals happy and keeping nuisance algae and bacteria at bay. I'm convinced that my LPS, softies etc are an important part of keeping my SPS happy via NO3/PO4 management.

I did switch to more heavy feeding of the corals and paradoxically that has resulted in noticeably faster coral growth and a reduction in nuisance algae. After watching the WWC videos. my confidence in this strategy has sky rocketed.

I do run a small media reactor with activated carbon (as insurance) and a little GFO since PO4 is, IMO, is the one compound that can really fuel nuisance stuff if it creeps up. (and of course if you strip it out cyano shows up so its a fine balance). Other than that, I no longer stress out over nutrients.

I do run 2 sumps (a HOB and a DIY traditional sump) that tie up NO3 and PO4 pretty efficiently and self regulating. If I over feed the cheato grows faster, I under feed - slower. Lots of rock and rubble rock to do the nitrogen cycle- although if I were to do it over. I would use much less rock and instead add marine pure in the sump.

I don't run a skimmer. I have 29 gal nano, I'm not convinced that nano skimmers are needed in a nano and I also think that we also get too efficient at stripping the water of nutrients that we actually swing the balance in favor of nuisance stuff, albeit less established tanks, IMO, have less ability to tie up NO3 and PO4 and thus need to rely on export more than a mature tank.

I do rely on my filter socks to help remove the uneaten food. My pumps shut down during feeding for 10 minutes. Then the powerheads turn back on for another 10 minutes to keep the food circulating before the sump pumps turn back on. I change the socks twice a week.

I don't know if this approach would work in a larger system. I would add a skimmer if I did go larger, but I would also keep an eye out for over skimming, and likely run it on a timer.


PS, I forgot to mention the sponge colonies. In addition to adding some interesting things to look at, I smile knowing they are living filters.
 
I've used a number of things over the years but a skimmer and refugium are my go to options. If that isnt adequate to control NO3 and/or PO4, I'll carbon dose and/or run GFO. I used fish and inverts for algae control (a Foxface will mow down algae like nobodies business).
 
I just use PolyFilter, live rock and weekly 10% water changes with a sand vacuum....keeping it simple

polyfilter_1.png
This is my method as well! I get the big bag of polly fill from walmart, weekly water changes. Ive always had really porus LAVA rock with no algae bloomsI like to go against the grain lol simple sometimes is better.
 
So nutrients in your tank is good and bad. If you don't have enough them some corals don't thrive and if you have too much nuisance algae thrives! Most of the time the latter is what happens and algae gets uncontrollable! The goal is to have a low, controlled amount of nutrients.

Nutrients that require exporting:
  • Nitrates
  • Phosphates
  • Ammonia
  • Nitrite
  • Dissolved Organic Compounds (DOC)
So that's what we will talk about today! Nutrients and how you control them! Vote in the poll and answer the following question.

How are you controlling nutrients and what has worked best for you?

48365192_271099800258275_6798431375524364288_n.jpg

image via @CoralAddict645
Not that topic is about it, but that’s a beautiful aquarium!!!
 
I checked refugium and other. I run a refugium with DSB, live rock, hopefully a cryptic zone will form where the light can't reach in the 8" pile of rock. The tank is 7 months wet. I run around 6ppm PO4 and everything is thriving. My Coral Beauty Angelfish pair are exhibiting mating behavior. I feed 6 - 8 cubes of DIY Mollusk feast daily. I ran GFO for a month but the PO4 never budged and the out of control algae subsided so I pulled the GFO about a month ago. Now I'm at the point where I'm not checking anything but KH and Ca unless something goes wrong. No more chafing Nutrients for this reefer. I guess you could call my reef an UHNS.
 
Corals for nitrogen and posphate. Cryptic sponges for labile DOC (much faster than bacterioplankton). Water changes for refractory DOC, nitrogen and phosphate.
 
I have seahorses so controlling nutrients is very important for their health. This is doublely important because seahorses contribute to a very heavy bioload in a tank due to their primitive stomachs.

My number 1 control is water changes, big frequent water changes. My number 2 is a protein skimmer rated 2-3 Xs the size of the system. In the other column is my number 3 control which is macro algae in the display tank.

 
I remember when reverse undergravel filters and trickle filter/coil denitrators were what everyone used, and the Berlin method was just being introduced (skimmer/live rock/"I forget #3"). I've struggled with reef tanks, taken several hiatuses, and am now back with a much easier to maintain setup.

1) Algae, to me, is the primary reason tank ease-of-maintenance and effectivenes-of-filtration has improved so much over the last decade or so. I remember when Adey's algae scrubbers were pretty much mocked by everyone, and it was all about how big of a skimmer and how much live rock you could put into a system. Now, it seems like you sneeze and you hit 3 reefers who are running a refugium, reactor, or scrubber. When I was running a Berlin system with a downdraft skimmer, I wasn't able to control nutrient levels nearly as easily as now - For a $30 LED crow bulb, a handful of chaeto in the sump, and a clip-on bulb mount, I can literally keep my nitrates and phosphates low enough that I haven't run a skimmer since a week or two after the tank was set up years ago. All you have to do is have some relatively fast-growing algae, give it light, and sit back and enjoy. Unless it's Caulerpa, which metastasized in an old tank of mine and killed everything. I hate Caulerpa.

I saved a link to this article - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/upflow-algae-scrubber-uas.240710/ because it's cheap and effective, and you can stick it in back compartments of nano reefs.

2) Skimmers - https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature was a mind-altering article for me. Experiments showing that an airstone driven or venturi skimmer works roughly as well as a needlewheel or downdraft skimmer costing 5-10x more?! Apparently, skimmers remove 20-35% of dissolved organics, and that's it. You pay for convenience, quality of build, ease of adjustment and cleaning . . . but not really performance?! I remember using an old HOB Amiracle 3" limewood airstone skimmer on a 20 gallon tank, and it . . . skimmed really well! I even remember an article about filling the body of an airstone skimmer with bioballs (andusing a ceramic long lasting airstone) so the bubbles would slow down, hit the bioballs and break into smaller bubbles, and leave a very calm air/water interface for foam production. I do think that skimmers have benefits (gas exchange, improving pH, a backup safety mechanism), but I no longer think that they are essential to maintaining a healthy reef tank. I'm one of the 10% of members (according to a poll on here) who don't run a skimmer. Tank looks great. It'd probably do well with a skimmer, too. I will admit to having a small Tunze in the garage "just in case", though. ;-)

3) Filter socks - https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/view/brstv-investigates-what-do-filter-socks-do-for-you/ was another amazing video for me. 30% reduction in nitrates and phosphates by rinsing your filter socks twice a week? That's a shockingly effective (to me) way to control nutrients that is also incredibly low cost. I admit that I took my filter socks out because my Chaeto refugium takes up the slack and I'm lazy, but how many articles on nitrate/phosphate reduction don't mention this really simple and effective technique?

4) Anything by Randy Holmes-Farley. I was a chemistry major, so anything chemistry based appeals to me. I also really like how he's evidence based in a hobby where so much is conjecture and hyperbole. One of my rules (which I do occasionally break!) is to not be on the side of someone arguing with Randy. I really don't like being wrong, so this works pretty darn well!
-https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/nitrate-in-the-reef-aquarium.10/
-https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/phosphate-in-the-reef-aquarium.9/

5) Lastly, test kits - because how do you know what your nutrients actually are without accurate test kits? https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/b...s-salifert-api-hanna-triton-awt.234660/page-3 is another favorite of mine, and led me from API to Elos to Salifert (and Hanna for their copper tester in another thread!).

6) Partial water changes - I'm also in the camp that says that what they put back in (or the unseen things that they take out) are more important than nitrate/phosphate reduction, because they simply aren't very effective at that.

I realize that there are many different ways of reducing nutrients in a tank, and that many people have different ways of doing things. That's fine. I do think that we should be as evidence based as possible when there is good evidence to guide us, and that simple, cheap, and reasonably effective trumps a heck of a lot.

My biggest problem is my daughter's freshwater tank, which is a disaster. I find freshwater tanks to be a lot harder, because unless you have plants (algae filtration, essentially), I have no idea how to effectively reduce nitrates. It's also got a ton of detritus in the gravel because I have no idea what kinds of critters help with that (as opposed to nassarius snails, which I really like). It's kind of sad, really, when I can keep corals in a reef but I can't keep my daughter's tank from looking like a disaster. I do have a high output LED strip for her tank, though, so with some plants I hope to turn things around.

Wish me luck! Darn freshwater :-D
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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