Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

[brandon429]

Rinse rinse. Yes it feels wierd to me to rinse live sand into cloudless perfection using cold tap water. Our reef training makes us feel strange about that, but the science should eventually undo that reaction as we press through to agelessness and sharp bright corals afterwards. Tap water isn't some horrible contaminant that ruins new sand. Rinse with it, then rinse with saltwater, and its gone.

The reason to use tap isn't to be a rogue, its because its limitless. Mix up nine gallons of saltwater for a common rinse...you'll need fifteen to complete and you'll hedge on the thorough approach and put back cloudy sand. Tap lets you be thorough, its not about breaking rules. Bacteria in the sand are incidental, and most of them remain post-rinse anyway. Microbiologists don't rinse their work areas in tap water during cleaning routines, because that would contaminate not decontaminate their surfaces. Some bacteria are removed and killed in a tap rinse, a huge portion not, and in three days it doesn't matter anyway as steady states are re attained.

I have zero waste sink now, I'm about to feed like a champ and bring back the challenged corals.

 

[brandon429]

And done. I'll take a white light shot later to match the before picture perspective

A pico reef is the best documentation for skip cycle cleaning one could have. Tiny, susceptible to slightest errors, no skimmer, no dilution, even a mini cycle will kill it.


There is NO cycle whatsoever in a sand bed replacement done in the correct order of operations. It is trustworthy and helpful biology. Same for a bed rinsing vs bed replacement...I chose to replace here simply because it's cheap and fast and old sand has zero benefit for me.

 

[brandon429]

After shot. Flicked on the lights five hours early grab quick pic

Receding acro was fragged back to just tips. Red monti never was in stress they're used to all this. Bowl has more room, zero waste and already got fed nice roti feast all set

I wont even have to clean the glass in this reef until Easter.

once a week or so ill do quick water change, having fed roti feast and cyclopeeze just before, and only that approach will be needed to resume coral production. montis are ready for fragging. I go find alley trash plastic and glue them to cut strips today I hope to find a water bottle or 9v battery pack refuse. reef use.

 

[brandon429]

After couple hours lights on:

These corals are happy, energized, hungry, this is a refreshing, eutrophication reversing technique. You can run it on a perfectly healthy reef, before anything goes wrong, and it cures every sandbed issue such as recurring cyano and we also have dino battle threads where rip cleaning won.

To be able to flip clean a tank to the bottom glass on command is to take ongoing control of your reef's performance.

A lower organic storage system/approach to reefing directly has a lower biological oxygen demand than the common aged/hands off sandbed setup

During a power outage, you want the clean condition reef not the old one. Significant difference in oxygen tax/demand from two different modes of reefing (hands on vs hands off sandbed)

To rip clean a reef tank is to bring it up in resilience six notches.

Pods are not gone at all, they hitch in the rocks. Give your system a week after cleaning to evaluate and see... feed the tank at 3 am one night and check with a red filter flashlight to see. Right back at it. One immediate hint of this phenomena is that waving brittle micro star arm up top under the whorl of monti. He and cousins ride the things out... tidal ebb tidal flow.


24 hours after a rip cleaning, your reef is the strongest and hungriest it's been.

This is the same reef as my avatar. That was six culls ago.

Nano reefer jbh just did one too:
https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/388783-algae-id-help-needed/?tab=comments#comment-5621323
Sharp after pics there and nice quality live rock and coral in that system.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sandbed-maintenance.355396/


Substrate analysis for that massive setup based on pics reviewed in the thread

highlights:

Too big and too bio set to take apart. First one in our thread


Clouding is a headache there, needs remedy

Bed turning clean up crews, are they contributing to sandbed waste or reducing it? What do they feed on while in the bed...and what is the nature of cuc waste? How does a goby differ from a sand sifting star regarding detritus contribution to a hands off sandbed?

What options are avail for a keeper to clean, then replenish the sandbed life? Indopacific sea farms used to sell exactly that product. Someone else fills it now, not sure who.

I bet many a mudflat dweller coastal dweller could coaxed to mail a plastic water bottle charger kit for the price of shipping. I once mailed my buddy the full starter culture for his neocaridina shrimp farm in a Dasani water bottle.


Sectional removal work with replaced sand as an option above, remove it in increments, replace with highly rinsed sand.

Sulfide analysis not by chemistry but by before shots and status given in description: The waste in his sandbed while annoying, is actually pretty scaled for that level of coral mass and if that was my tank it would still have a sandbed tuneup but it would be over time and not all at once. He doesn't have the same mini cycle risk here as our smaller, or cruddier/deeper dsb examples. Dilution is in favor there, a clean cross section pic, all indicators of work boundaries we know can be taken and not harm the corals. Neat tank and thread there.


I personally would use a tube hose and stick and probe it into sand up under rocks

Dredge a mud sample

See if smells weird our nose is a fine fine h sulfide indicator best around.

Nitrate test the sample -after it sits in the sample water for 48 hrs- we can infer basic protein loading and nitrogen potentiation

Dredge testing a huge sandbed before work is how we can gain additional prep details.

 

[User1]

Interesting read. I just added about 200 lbs of sand - mix between caribsea aragonite (3 40 lbs bags) and two 40 lb bags of caribsea aragonite / pink Fiji. Didn't rinse because, well, you loose too much and buying sand oddly enough isn't cheap Since the tank will be going through a cycle I'll be running some floss that will capture most of it and I am guessing it will clear up pretty quick. Years ago I had about 180 lbs of Southdown Aragonite sand. That was a lot finer grain and the storm lasted a couple days. We'll see.

View attachment 20180130_074622.jpg

 

[brandon429]

That's a good clean scape and the rocks already have some coloration that's a good start

To see if rinsing removes a lot, take a container and wet some sand right out of the bag in it so it sinks down into place and mark that line

Rinse it without spilling large grains, flush with tap water till just the silt stops, I can never tell a loss in mine. The benefits of not directly feeding silicates to diatoms alone is worth a small loss.

 

[brandon429]

Microbiology tip for 2018: compensatory filtration bacteria misnomer in reefing-

When someone removes their sandbed to go bare bottom, they're often told to go in increments so bacteria have time to build up elsewhere. This is incorrect, not how bacteria work. How bacteria work is what we rely on to get away with the crazy stuff we do in this thread...

The rule is that on all submerged tank surfaces, given time and steady states (post cycling) bacteria only stack so high. There's shearing force by the water, micropredation by zillions of microfauna, inter/traspecies regulation of bacterial populations, constant life and death and sloughing and this all makes the filtration biolayer rather consistent given steady states (not like when we OD on a carbon source and give em a leg up from norm)

several controls already keep cycled live rock with as much nitrifiers as it can hold -depending on its available surface area- after it can pass the standard oxidation test of 2 ppm systemic free ammonia converted to zero in 24 hours.





That means whatever active surface area someone is leaving in the tank is as ready to go day one as day fifty after the removal. it is either enough or not enough active surface area to manage a given bioload, but the surface areas don't just stack up with all the bacteria we removed from a sandbed ripping, the sandbed bacteria were extra bioloading the entire time. A BOD tax, biological oxygen demand, and we simply supported the extra mass until time to remove it. No different than acclimating your system right now to nine new canister filters

Hook up all nine...wait three months...change nothing in your reefing...how did they all nine fill up with bacteria if we didn't feed extra? Surface area and hydration is what's needed, we aren't the master control for bacteria by our paltry offerings. They get what they need, we just give water and real estate.

Conversely, after ten years you could remove every one of the nine canister filters and your system wouldn't recycle, even though a massive loss of systemic bac occurred. What's left in your tank without the nine canisters was enough.


These bacterial tenets aren't just an excuse to thumb type en masse, it's because these characteristics let a reef keeper do powerful things with their tank. We are freer to act on them than we've ever been told...which puts the power and locus of control into the reefers hands to opt out of invasions, address high nutrients, flip change and rearrange a sandbed and move them about town at will.
this thread is also documentation of how the reefbowl runs forever uninvaded. Occasional sand clearing is the ticket

If any reader has a tank fifty gallons or less (arbitrary volume where access doesn't take a whole day) especially if its not densely stocked, there's no excuse to be invaded with cyano. it's the easiest invader to cure- don't use sludge as topoff water, rip change your sandbed, and dispatch it. Don't medicate for it.

 

[brandon429]

Good science welcomes debate

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/detritus-is-it-as-bad-as-some-make-out.300047/page-4


That’s a thread claim that detritus is of low consequence

 

[BigJohnny]

Interesting read. I just added about 200 lbs of sand - mix between caribsea aragonite (3 40 lbs bags) and two 40 lb bags of caribsea aragonite / pink Fiji. Didn't rinse because, well, you loose too much and buying sand oddly enough isn't cheap Since the tank will be going through a cycle I'll be running some floss that will capture most of it and I am guessing it will clear up pretty quick. Years ago I had about 180 lbs of Southdown Aragonite sand. That was a lot finer grain and the storm lasted a couple days. We'll see.

View attachment 20180130_074622.jpg

I would cure that pukani.....

 

[BigJohnny]

Good science welcomes debate

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/detritus-is-it-as-bad-as-some-make-out.300047/page-4


That’s a thread claim that detritus is of low consequence

Sanjay joshi has a 10+ year old tank and sump FULL of detritus. He has never siphoned the sandbed or sump and does not use filter socks. One of the nicest tanks in the world. More than one way to skin a cat ; )

 

[brandon429]

Agreed, I deal in multiples though. and he's Sanjay, nimble at the critical cleaning and grazer balancing, hows res publica doing we show with all the stored up waste? (cyano invasion threads)


There's outliers for any claim. Here's the breakdown of detritus impact in a display tank garnered not from one tank, but from 17 yrs of online threads we run much like this one that deal in multiples and in other peoples tanks, not just mine: we're all taught to store up waste as the initial go. Don't upset the system. That works for X years, and its finite, in all systems and if you're a published reef author of 30 yrs experience youre likely to succeed no matter what. If anyone begins advising procedure in lets say 15 nano reefs and begins guiding them out for people via threads, starting in year 4 of a totally hands off nano reef, you'll never end with 15 successful nano reefs you'll end with them all racked by invasion if they aren't set back to a clean slate at some point... though differing years among them w be required to total destruction/variables. Being able to control a reef that is not in your home is where its at, totally.

Test the claims in nano reefs ran by others, not full size reefs or single examples, is ideal for pattern tracking
If those 15 test nanos are all cleaned up at the start, and then as required by home variation, they'll live forever and they'll live uninvaded we show in current models ran by others.





Post his thread, I saw that reefbuilders article on the 20 yr nano, and some updates were also posted to that article after it was first written, if we're talking the same thing.




If anyone knows a thread where detritus storage is working well in smaller tanks, that do not have dilution in favor, more than one all in one thread, can post for review we're accepting all info and challenge here. we want only what passes scrutiny. I know of ATS threads that meet that condition, but they're also not being moved, flipped, and saved from cyano challenges, those threads are all about the good parts. Messy sandbeds can wreck any system.

Also consider this thread is about the times access is required. How many keepers stay in one place as long as Sanjay? When its time to move, would all that stored up detritus be a challenge for the average keeper in avoiding a cycle? In my opinion the commoner reef is subject to more upsets and again this requires intricate ability to name the locus of the cycle risk, and then work around it or by example never store it in the first place. reefs from the public aren't going to sit static that long, there will be rock slides in the tank, power outages, power heads that fall and aim down into the sand, they wont have the same multi decade luck

My work shows 100% that pre empting those conditions with no detritus is how the bulk of reefers can hedge safety. To have the detritus may work for him, but its an ecological risk to the mini system given any sort of atypical physical insult.

 

[BigJohnny]

Agreed, I deal in multiples though. and he's Sanjay, nimble at the critical cleaning and grazer balancing, hows res publica doing we show with all the stored up waste? (cyano invasion threads)


There's outliers for any claim. Here's the breakdown of detritus impact in a display tank garnered not from one tank, but from 17 yrs of online threads we run much like this one that deal in multiples and in other peoples tanks, not just mine: we're all taught to store up waste as the initial go. Don't upset the system. That works for X years, and its finite, in all systems and if you're a published reef author of 30 yrs experience youre likely to succeed no matter what. If anyone begins advising procedure in lets say 15 nano reefs and begins guiding them out for people via threads, starting in year 4 of a totally hands off nano reef, you'll never end with 15 successful nano reefs you'll end with them all racked by invasion if they aren't set back to a clean slate at some point... though differing years among them w be required to total destruction/variables. Being able to control a reef that is not in your home is where its at, totally.

Test the claims in nano reefs ran by others, not full size reefs or single examples, is ideal for pattern tracking
If those 15 test nanos are all cleaned up at the start, and then as required by home variation, they'll live forever and they'll live uninvaded we show in current models ran by others.





Post his thread, I saw that reefbuilders article on the 20 yr nano, and some updates were also posted to that article after it was first written, if we're talking the same thing.




If anyone knows a thread where detritus storage is working well in smaller tanks, that do not have dilution in favor, more than one all in one thread, can post for review we're accepting all info and challenge here. we want only what passes scrutiny.

Also consider this thread is about the times access is required. How many keepers stay in one place as long as Sanjay? When its time to move, would all that stored up detritus be a challenge for the average keeper in avoiding a cycle? In my opinion the commoner reef is subject to more upsets and again this requires intricate ability to name the locus of the cycle risk, and then work around it or by example never store it in the first place.

I can't possibly address everything in that post without spending some serious time typing on my phone lol, even though I'd have plenty to say ; ). Too lazy

 

[Nano sapiens]

Sanjay's 29g Nano tank is a good example of one method that was used back in the day. Running a softie tank without a skimmer, minimal water changes (sometimes not at all) and infrequent (if ever) detritus removal was common before the 'Berlin Method' was more widely practiced, but it was still fairly common (think 'Wet-dry trickle filter' days). Most reef keepers (myself included as I was doing this starting back in '85) would have cyano mats eventually show up on the sand bed (could take a few years with mid sized tanks) and the defacto fix was removal of the mats (obviously) and a follow up with a sustained series of sand bed cleanings in the effected area until the blooms completely disappeared. This was just something that was just expected with this very low maintenance method when running reef aquariums for years on end.

There was no specific talk of this in the video, but in 23 years if he hasn't addressed detritus buildup (by whatever means), then IME his system is indeed a rare outlier from the norm.

Ralph.

 

[BigJohnny]

Sanjay's tank is a good example of one method that was used back in the day. Running a softie tank without a skimmer, minimal water changes (sometimes not at all) and infrequent (if ever) detritus removal was common before the 'Berlin Method' was more widely practiced, but it was still fairly common (think 'Wet-dry trickle filter' days). Most reef keepers (myself included as I was doing this starting back in '85) would have cyano mats eventually show up on the sand bed (could take a few years with mid sized tanks) and the defacto fix was removal of the mats (obviously) and a follow up with a sustained series of sand bed cleanings in the effected area until the blooms completely disappeared. This was just something that was just expected with this very low maintenance method when running reef aquariums for years on end.

There was no specific talk of this in the video, but in 23 years if he hasn't addressed detritus buildup (by whatever means), then IME his system is indeed a rare outlier from the norm.

Ralph.

I was actually referring to his acro dominant 500g. What video are you referring to?

 

[Nano sapiens]

Referring to Brandon's reference to Sanjay's 29g Nano of 23 years.

 

[brandon429]

The 500 gallon is too much dilution to claim neutrality of detritus in my opinion... no large system gets to make commentary on it, only small ones do.

that 29 gallon one that doesn’t look like twenty yrs of compiled detritus? Am expecting sandbed would be five inches of brown sludge capping off a white strata we could see in cross section pics... am thinking surely/occasionally he'd need to siphon up a bit off the top right? At least since I was in school?

 

[Nano sapiens]

https://reefbuilders.com/2017/07/19/sanjay-joshis-nano-reef-tank-breaks-all-the-rules/

 

[brandon429]

It's good for sure. In time and due mainly to this thread I've become fully certain of the place sand rinsing had in the hobby: it's merely an access technique and we show how to do it without loss, it's not a claim to be the best technique. it's reef surgery and whether surgery is required or not ranges.



Certain systems that do cryptic filtration or niche feeding techniques of course we aren't saying rinse them...

Only run the actions here when needed

The reason for this thread is definitely to collect and contrast every method in reefing that has to do with any form of invasion prevention or longevity focusing not on param readings (we haven't utilized phosphate or nitrate reading for results) but on how mulm that can be visually seen is factored.
He's showing good proofs for the hands off method. How were micro nutrients kept in balance above?

 

[brandon429]

we should have any reader of this thread consider becoming part of a side group thread that removes their skimmers and stop water changes and we track it.

NS,
What in the world is the missing element to be able to transmit this technique to the masses and not have it the realm of one? The answer stops the need for ATS, carbon dosing, triton testing, micronutrient replacement, many more