Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

[brandon429]

no I think its ok but test a bit first. suction out a good hanfull of sand permanently out of the tank, if the cloud isn't just huge it'll be ok. expect possible a little algae or cyano due to the change of pace, predicted and not a prob we can deal with them directly if needed. its shallow enough I bet you are ok.

with that stack of rock the #1 thing Im sure of based on pics is you do not need that sand for nitrification, its not the breakpoint. a quarter of that much rock alone would do your whole tank. only the detritus is the risk here, if applic, not the loss of bac.

 

[cchomistek]

Here is the tank with cyano over the rocks and sand... @brandon429

 

[brandon429]

I still think that looks natural, divers see things just like that as reefs cycle in a healthy mode between various balances eutrophic/oligotrophic conditions and with that lighting it makes your tank look really natural. Even the colorations on the cross section in the sand bed don't look bad to me at all, Ive seen black pocketing and reports of very smelly dredge tests that would warrant quick action, however.

If you rinsed or replaced or didn't replace this particular bed it would be just bc of a change of pace wanted, the actual tank right now isn't in any kind of misbalance as a real reef would look just like that at the rock level and in patches on the sand, to be perfectly free of those growths is the unnatural condition, that's why its so hard to reach and takes harsh cheat skip cycle action to get there, when wanted.

A correctly sized and installed UV would stop all the concerns wo touching the bed, in this particular system per pics but that's pretty costly, and more gear, its just indicated here per pics if ever wanted on such a large setup. to employ them is practically no work and the outcome, if sized per our charts correctly, is assured. if I were to shine my kessil on 10K fully and up to 90% I could generate similar growths on my sandbed, whereas high blue simply works in my system to stop it. The sandbed isn't any issue in my tank its rinsed, the lighting and how lazy I get on water changes def adds similar colors and invaders to my bed.

these are the expected invaders over time in any reef, cyano and diatoms get in routinely and in some tanks they don't go away, they suppress.

Its the others like valonia, invasive dinos, invasive macros, bryopsis, those are all resulting from direct import, non QT, and its possible to have a tank that never features those guests when a reefer considers his invasion balances between obligate hitchhikers and the ubiquitous ones (cyano and green micro algae are everywhere)

 

[brandon429]

Here's a new framing for this thread:


Anyone who has a recurring cyano invasion is choosing to have that condition and they can choose to be free of it, by doing opposite of what got them the cyano (storing up waste in a sandbed that cannot pass a clouding drop test and watching the invasion grow as they take only indirect, partial actions with fingers crossed their whole nontarget system isn't affected)


To have cyano, or spirulina invasions sustained, is to choose to have them, the proof is right here that you can opt out. Either admit we farm our non anchored invaders on purpose and reverse that, or continue down the medication/hesitation/delay path.

its time we own up to sandbed invasions as a psychology, not a biology.

 

[brandon429]

We should get some challenge tanks posted here, lets see how many cyano probs continue after we run it through the machine.

Nano keepers have it easy, large tankers do not, and the price of hesitation is massive for large tankers. That doesn't change the fix mode one bit. we don't care if a nano tanker delays because its so easy to access their whole system, once their mind changes into taking responsibility for the invasion they hate so much.

Bring it, post em cyano challenges.

 

[don_chuwish]

My 120G isn't very old yet, having just been rebuilt (mostly same rock & sand) early this year. I rinsed the heck out of that sand for the redo. Since then I've used a long siphon tube to stir/vacuum the sand during water changes. I don't do partial vacuuming - I hit every area I can reach every time. No ill effects and the sand looks nice and clean. I do have plenty of LR, plus Pond Matrix and MarinePure in the sump. No matter what I do to my sand I don't lack for bio-filter.

 

[Slarti]

Here's a new framing for this thread:


Anyone who has a recurring cyano invasion is choosing to have that condition and they can choose to be free of it, by doing opposite of what got them the cyano (storing up waste in a sandbed that cannot pass a clouding drop test and watching the invasion grow as they take only indirect, partial actions with fingers crossed their whole nontarget system isn't affected)


To have cyano, or spirulina invasions sustained, is to choose to have them, the proof is right here that you can opt out. Either admit we farm our non anchored invaders on purpose and reverse that, or continue down the medication/hesitation/delay path.

its time we own up to sandbed invasions as a psychology, not a biology.

You know, there is so much information available in the hobby that we sometimes lose track of the most obvious. I have read this whole tread before and have been following along and yet the penny somehow had not dropped about my own cyano until I read your post. So I will take up the challenge and work through my sand in the next few weeks and I am positive it will be for the better. Thing is I have been wracking my brain on what else to do as due to the size of the tank and what I have done to try and fix it I just could not work out what else...like I say, sometimes you stare at the obvious without seeing a thing!

Only have the iPhone for a camera but will take some pictures and get back to you on the progress.

 

[brandon429]

Slarti

It sounds like you might be working with a large tank, like Don was?

I have the ultimate respect for that level of commitment for both of you, large tanking is serious money, serious life on the line, and 10x the interstices and surfaces to try and predict where detritus will hide (the loss and recycle risk)

these feedbacks from you all on the team is just gold, a nano aquarist can model the tiny biology and rinsing parts of the deal which 100% can upscale safely into any system, but a large tank aquarist who actually does the work, and is thorough enough to not cause a cycle, where being thorough feels WIERD on that scale because it seems we are harming our microbes, is a valuable contribution for us all in the form of bio trust and deliberate action.

No other system has become as apparent to me as reliable for stopping cyano as simply killing it without meds. I don’t have any ideas beyond force cleaning, but I’d never recommend any action my own tank hasn’t seen normally on any random Tuesday.

** The newer and upcoming trends of adding nutrients, adjusting and affecting specific N and P balances and supporting natural competitors against dinos and cyano challenge systems might indeed surpass our after pic outcomes one day, and be 10x less work, and remove that risk of system crash by not cleaning well enough.

I hope that occurs. In the meantime I recommend a paired approach=be free of invasion, then do all that in hopes a large tanker won’t have to part down and rinse fully again. Don’s use of blast cleaning, then the prevention cleaning is simply what I’d do if I had a large tank with sand.


Can’t imagine the work levels involved with 100+ gallons of rinsing and substrates compared to cleaning a nano reef, you guys are troopers to the Nth
B

 

[brandon429]

Team I’m going bonkers trying to find a really helpful thread, searches won’t locate it but someone has it on quickdraw for sure, it’s called How I Keep my Sandbed clean
Saltyfilmfolks recommends it a lot and it’s darn good pairings for us here


It’s a video from poster dbl I sure thought, that shows the maintenance type of approach to cleaning for big tankers, it’s really popular thread, and I’d like it linked here again if someone can find.

 

[Slarti]

Actually Brandon, only 30 gallons for me so not such a big task. I am doing it slowly though just taking one or two spots every water change. I also realised the sand I have is very fine and in cleaning I am losing a fair amount. But I will keep going and replace what I have lost once I am comfortable it is clean. Of course this time I will make sure only clean sand goes in!!! I did take some photos before the weekend water change but they fairly poor but will put them up none the less. Can also see some GHA taking over a single rock...

 

[brandon429]

thanks tons for the before pics

what I can also see from the scope provided is the aquarium glass doesn't appear to be walled in with growth, this looks to be a substrates issue not so much a systemic nutrients issue and even if it was, 30 gallons is a two hour rip change. For that minor GHA you are acting early on, it would be neat to see how test rocks respond to simply lifting out the rocks, scrubbing off the growths, and hit the former spots with peroxide after they've been manually cleaned, so we can chart that test rock's regrowth compared to other untouched rocks.

The minor coverage here impedes your live rock's ability to exchange detritus and nutrients with the water column, when they are manually cleared as grazers do in the wild, they'll express some detritus that would be surprising for a little while. That's one more reason IMO to test rock, swish one clean into a white bucket then let it sit there to see how much detritus comes out, that's what we can expect in your system if its all changed out. having a clean sandbed will be nice when the rocks themselves begin to purge.

Nano reefs can simply be brought back from any invasion to the degree we are able and willing to access the substrates in forced compliance reefing. Its the large tankers I worry for.

Most importantly, I saw exact growths like yours underwater on the Cayman Islands east end reefs with my own eyes at about ~30 feet down, this is natural growth and to be totally free of it is the unnatural condition.

I do not see invasions as indicative of something bad, unless we're using some kind of sludge as topoff water

Reefs with NO nutrient issues at all will grow algae, so grazers can live, and all we do in most of my restoration threads is impart some element of human grazing formerly missing, into the mix.

 

[Slarti]

Appreciate the reply. Some history, all up the tank is just over 2 years old. Just over a year ago we moved house and at the time I put all rock in a container for about 6 or 8 weeks. Although not overgrown I had enough algae on the rock to make them look really untidy. Did the regular water changes until they came out clean with hardly any detritus coming out. A week after I added the now sparkling rock back into the tank we had a power outage, came home during it so not sure for how long but I expect at least 6 hours. Went through a mini cycle but the algae came back and just never left altogether. I have done the regular water changes, keeping everything as clean as possible but it just not improving.

But from the above you will note I never cleaned the sand as I was told how dangerous it will be...so in my mind I have some backed up issues of a move and power outage lurking in the sand. I can just imagine what is going on in there. But not for long, will get through it over time and sure will see an improvement.

As for cleaning rock, may do that as well as I want to make some changes to rock working in the next week or so as well.

 

[Ento-Reefer]

So glad I found this thread as I am beginning a new 180g tank. I want to minimize detritus from the start. I have been rinsing sand for 2 hours. I used a 5g bucket and put a hard stream of water from my utility sink while using my hands to mix it up real good. I let the water overflow the bucket for a good 15 minutes for each bag before dumping in the tank. I have well water that I know has some phosphates in a it, but since I poured off all of that water except the tiniest amount, am I correct in thinking it won't be a problem?
I plan on siphoning this sand bed at each water change to keep it clean. I will also have a pair of diamond gobies to help eventually once the tank has aged a few months.

Thank you for this thread. I was old school and never really rinsed my sand in the past. I always had a deep sand bed, but this time I am sticking with 1-2". Just enough for my wrasses and gobies to be comfortable.

 

[BillyD69]

It’s funny that I stumbled upon this thread. I’ve had freshwater fish most of my life and was always successful with them. The few forays I had into reef tanks usually ended with lots of algae, ugly tanks and a lot of wasted money. Recently I thought I would get back into reefing but decided I would take a more freshwater approach with it. With FW tanks I would break them down once or twice a year, rinse the gravel, clean the glass and rock work. Just would never mess with the filters when I would extreme clean, leave em running in a extra small tank I had so they wouldn’t dry out. I was rough during weekly water changes too and would vac the crap out of gravel. When it came to reef tanks I did none of this thinking everything must be hands off lest I upset the biological balances in the tank not to mention the corals and what not. Instead everything became a chemistry experiment, testing this, adding that, till I gave up. Reading this thread has given me the confidence I need to go ahead and have a more hands on (in) approach, Thanks.

 

[brandon429]

https://reefbuilders.com/2018/01/15/133763/

A mini sand rinse article.

so neat!

People release articles from time to time that shore right up with the work we do... we compared and contrasted an article on old tank syndrome a few pages back just the same.

I like to check what we/they do for similarities

and we have a lot of similarities to the statements there, its neat confirming science in my opinion. on with the rinsing. on with the winning against cyano, diatoms, dinos et al.

 

[brandon429]

PS

how awesome is Reef2Reef to openly allow intersite linking in the name of good science. We can use any example we need to make biopoints, kudos to R2R

its neat to be able to compare a good year's or so worth of tank work to these articles that have such exposure for the masses. Its neat how sand rinsing is tied to tank longevity and how accounting for the detritus handles 99% of what people have concerns about.

 

[brandon429]

BillyD69

I didn't see your post above must've missed the update thank you for stopping in for sure. That's a good point of similarity, we have this little reset button that can be used from time to time if needed, it varies~

its true in reefing most like to set n forget, and that's ok to try but pending any invasions or untoward behavior from the sandbed we can rinse/redo not a prob thanks for posting for sure
B

 

[brandon429]

@cchomistek
I thought of your tank when chefjpaul posted his dive pictures, a healthy looking reef patch and a touch of cyano...all in good balance this one particular area stood out

from his posts here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-are-the-root-causes-of-cyano.338028/page-10#post-4367957

 

[brandon429]

Skip cycle rip clean biology is the reason my pico reef is twelve and uninvaded. It's not possible to have any type of enduring invasion when someone has access to nutrient sinks (sandbed) in a repeatable and safe manner. Here is my 2018 rip clean, my tank is sparkling right now and polyps extended brighter than ever, will post a white light update pic this afternoon with lights on.

This sandbed change out restores bright lighting to the bottom areas by being so white and reflective. Since my vase converges towards the bottom, a dwindling sandbed packs in all the corals but the raised new bed puts them higher up in the globe where there's double room. Closer to the light


By changing the sandbed I affected the light quality and intensity for many corals, interesting facet of aging reef care maintenance.

Old tank syndrome is beaten, it doesn't exist in this method. No form of bacterial support or dosing or streamlining other than detritus removal is required to have an ageless reef aquarium that can last as long as it should, for generations given all hardware luck. *Our resident bacteria modulate themselves permanently if we just remove competing mats of mixed heterotrophic bacteria (sludge) occasionally. Owing to the theme in this thread: your bacteria are permanently strong and none of these actions are medication actions, these are export actions we're reviewing here. Pure, repeatable, take my own medicine skip cycle biology. old school non med approach

Old tank syndrome was beaten by a one gallon vase

The before shot. Light cyano forming at the substrate interface and packed corals. A new acro frag is receding. Hadn't been feeding very much in 2017 the system was self running pretty much and a rip clean is -regenerating- and aerating and just what's needed for 2018. I tap rinsed my new sand for thirty minutes before use per this thread. The outcome is shockingly clean. For about ten months I won't have to do much at all but restore good feeding to earn back challenged corals. Re fragged the acro tips to new plug, bought roti feast, all set

I started by removing my corals and putting them into holding bowls. This time they got the courtesy of being submerged. If it was summer time they'd spend the half hour out in the air on dinner plates per previous posts. Too cold currently

Isolate sensitives was step one.

Tough trained: that blasto in the bowl has been solely produced in two reef vases over seventeen years time, it is 100% vase mass. I cannot count how many massive water changes its seen. It's been out of water 30 minutes about thirty times or more

 

[brandon429]

Rinse phase. No I didn't use the clarifier pack this is the sand rinse thread. Thirty minutes of rinsing new sand with cold tap, then clean saltwater, then set it all back up totally clean

Look how cloudy the old sand was. Any hands off sandbed has this filth in it.