Only Care About Reliability - APEX or GHL

[Saltysav96]

GHL hands down. i am running their controller, lights and dosing pump.

ive never owned apex, but am constantly seeing people posting about apex issues.

 

[lmm1967]

How can anyone answer this if they have not run both for a while?

 

[LadyTang2]

Ok so Im looking at the GHL, how would I be able to ensure my ato does

How can anyone answer this if they have not run both for a while?

what made you want to move toward ghl a few years back?

I have heard the wifi thing is a big issue but never about leaking dosers although I have heard about the heads have various issues.

 

[JoshH]

@Ditto has a great write up on switching from Apex to GHL due to reliability and quality issues with Apex....

Switching Controllers from Apex to GHL

The title of the thread says it all. I am not going to bash Neptune systems, all I am going to say mine crashed again, and the word fluke in the technical response left me going I cannot take any more chances. This was my second hard crash of the system, where both time the system came up in an...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[GugsJr]

As someone who had an Apex and made the switch to GHL. I'm glad I made the switch.

Failures on my Apex:
-EB832 (replaced/repaired under warranty)
-Multiple Optical sensors (only 1 replaced under warranty)
-Cor20 Power supply (offered a discount while under warranty)
-24V Solenoid (bad solder job, redid the soldering myself)
-ATO PMUP (never even submitted a claim just switched to GHL)

Issues since I've had my GHL:

-Nothing

Programming for both aren't difficult just different so if you get used to one just a learning curve for the other.

With that being said I have an Apex running my dart frog Vivariums but just simple on off features as I got it for a few corals in a trade. If I find a good deal I'll switch that to GHL as well.

 

[lmm1967]

Ok so Im looking at the GHL, how would I be able to ensure my ato does

what made you want to move toward ghl a few years back?

I have heard the wifi thing is a big issue but never about leaking dosers although I have heard about the heads have various issues.

In order of importance for me at the time:

1. KH Director. I really dislike testing - and ALK is the primary worry on my tanks. Trident was almost impossible to get at the time. KH Director was already out with the ION director on the way.

2. Dosing - Multiple dosing options with GHL. Maxi dosers for things like AWC, Doser 2.1 for actual dosing.

3. Data - it's easier to pull historical data from GHL. I'm odd - I want my data and the ability to manipulate, evaluate and present in specific ways. That is easier to do with GHL than it is with Apex.

4. Flexibility - programming GHL has a higher learning curve, but for the most part, you have more options. i.e. - programming AWC with GHL - you have several options on doing that. 2 sensor, 3 sensor, no sensors etc.

5. Apex optical sensors failed on me - I think 3 of them over the course of about a year - looking back, these sensors and 1 leak detector are the only Apex gear that ever failed on me.

 

[lmm1967]

I have heard the wifi thing is a big issue but never about leaking dosers although I have heard about the heads have various issues.

I'm actually running Apex DOS heads on 2 of my maxi-dosers due to this issue.

I've replaced 2 of the tubes already - GHL support did provide me with the updated, shorter tubes at no cost.

 

[LadyTang2]

I'm actually running Apex DOS heads on 2 of my maxi-dosers due to this issue.

I've replaced 2 of the tubes already - GHL support did provide me with the updated, shorter tubes at no cost.

bummer on the kh director, good tip on the doser to make sure tubes arnt too long, not that one should have to do that! Wonder if they started putting the right size tubing in there now.

 

[User1]

I just want to choose the more reliable option, I know many are happy with either but if all you care about is reliability [*** SNIP ***]

Both are reliable when set up properly and maintained equally. That is why both companies are still in business. Hobbyists who do reply, well, it is their, our, opinion. This is even true if one of us owns A and then switches to B and says B is more reliable. It is just anecdotal at best.

The onus is on the hobbyist to build a requirement list of what they must have as well as what the future may hold. Once you have that list it is a lot easier to pick between several controllers on the market be it Apex, GHL, or say open source solution such as Reef Angel.

 

[Everything Aquatics]

I would say apex

 

[273629116]

Around 3-4 years running GHL and no issues, no failures. I run the P4, KHD, 3 doser 2.1, and mitras LEDs
Just moved it all to my new Waterbox so no tank pic to share, but here is my setup all fit nicely inside the Waterbox stand

 

[robbyg]

Both are reliable when set up properly and maintained equally. That is why both companies are still in business. Hobbyists who do reply, well, it is their, our, opinion. This is even true if one of us owns A and then switches to B and says B is more reliable. It is just anecdotal at best.
--SNIP--

Nah it's not just anecdotal IMO. There are a lot of things that any design engineer can point out on the Apex that are just problems waiting to happen. One major one I picked up on is the Active cooling inside the EB832 PowerBar. The first issue is that the switching power supply in the EB832 is your typical Chinese power supply. It is by no means a "Mean Well" quality switching power supply.
Now couple that power supply to the need for active cooling by a fan and you have an almost predictable range of time for failure. If your lucky the Capacitors will last maybe a year past the time when the Fan stops running (and those fans always stop within a few years). Then the Caps Xc will start to rise and the capacitors will then heat up and swell and the power supply soon burns out in a pretty spectacular fashion. Maybe if you just dont use the 48V ports much you may escape this fate.

A better design would have been if they made the 48V supply a separate power brick that could be plugged into the EB832. That way you could hot swap it out without having your whole Power Bar go out of commission waiting on repairs.

Then you have the really poor choice of using bottom basement Paddle wheel sensors for the FLOW sensor readings. These are flow restrictors and are always going to need a lot of servicing and they are never going to last very long.

The Salinity probe is another bad choice. The Resistance reading between two strips of metal is a bad idea in an Aquarium. Just to many ways for the reading to get skewed. Stray voltage, air bubbles, bio fowling. Even chemicals that may change the conductivity without changing the salinity.

Lastly I look at my Trident and I really wish I could pull out the reagent drawer without the upper red plastic piece falling out. Also would it have killed them to make the plastic mold with a proper slider rail so that the reagent tray would not tip over and drop out? Honestly I love the unit but every time I change the reagents I get nervous that something is going to break. It just flimsy.

 

[halfmoon61]

Went from an RKE to a Profilux so I can't speak about the reliability of an Apex. My decision was based on the Apex was similar to the RKE, modular, the Profilux had most of what I use on the main unit. One issue I had was with the Vortech controller, I know a module , where it doesn't have the QD functions. Support kept telling me it wasn't a problem, it was a known issue but the Profilux 4 was in development so the 3 was a non issue. Updating the firmware can be a pain, I found the easiest thing to do is to just skip right to a recovery flash. GHL connect is useless to me, truly 9 out of 10 times it fails to connect and when it does it's so slow it disconnects just changing a page and I have problems connecting to the web server so using it remotely isn't going to happen for me till I figure that out. I can connect over my network to the GCC program without issue, and this is how I program the controller. Trial and error on programming logic, their forum wasn't very helpful with that.

With that said, once running, I haven't had any issues in the 8 years I've had it. Support improved once their presence in America increased, no small part due to Vinny.

 

[LadyTang2]

Around 3-4 years running GHL and no issues, no failures. I run the P4, KHD, 3 doser 2.1, and mitras LEDs
Just moved it all to my new Waterbox so no tank pic to share, but here is my setup all fit nicely inside the Waterbox stand

HAve you had to replace any heads?

 

[User1]

Nah it's not just anecdotal IMO. There are a lot of things that any design engineer can point out on the Apex that are just problems waiting to happen. One major one I picked up on is the Active cooling inside the EB832 PowerBar. The first issue is that the switching power supply in the EB832 is your typical ***** power supply. It is by no means a "Mean Well" quality switching power supply.
Now couple that power supply to the need for active cooling by a fan and you have an almost predictable range of time for failure. If your lucky the Capacitors will last maybe a year past the time when the Fan stops running (and those fans always stop within a few years). Then the Caps Xc will start to rise and the capacitors will then heat up and swell and the power supply soon burns out in a pretty spectacular fashion. Maybe if you just dont use the 48V ports much you may escape this fate.

A better design would have been if they made the 48V supply a separate power brick that could be plugged into the EB832. That way you could hot swap it out without having your whole Power Bar go out of commission waiting on repairs.

Then you have the really poor choice of using bottom basement Paddle wheel sensors for the FLOW sensor readings. These are flow restrictors and are always going to need a lot of servicing and they are never going to last very long.

The Salinity probe is another bad choice. The Resistance reading between two strips of metal is a bad idea in an Aquarium. Just to many ways for the reading to get skewed. Stray voltage, air bubbles, bio fowling. Even chemicals that may change the conductivity without changing the salinity.

Lastly I look at my Trident and I really wish I could pull out the reagent drawer without the upper red plastic piece falling out. Also would it have killed them to make the plastic mold with a proper slider rail so that the reagent tray would not tip over and drop out? Honestly I love the unit but every time I change the reagents I get nervous that something is going to break. It just flimsy.

Well, this will lead to more is it a subscription or not debate Note how I didn't vote or say one is better than the other? Two reasons why. One I am a long time user of Neptune products (back to 1999) so probably a bit biased. And two because I've not used a GHL product. I have used a Reef Angel though.

Since I've never had a failure with either that was a by product of their respected designs I could vote Neptune and/or RA and be honest. However I chose differently and replied saying both are reliable. I've had a energy bar break but it was due to a power surge into our neighbourhood. I've also had a PMUP go bad, version 1, and I believe it was due to my German Shepherd drinking my top off water. When I took it apart her hair was in the blade and also wrapped around the shaft. Go figure.

Design choices it is what it is. However, the question was reliability and I personally think it is misleading which is why I just said make a requirements list and take it from there. Safer answer and it removed my personal bias.

Experience wise though - no failures.

But - I hear you.

 

[telegraham]

I can answer. I'm currently running two Apex (a Jr and an EL) with a DOS, the eKoral Pro and the ProfiLux 4/two GHL dosers/two Mitras LX7 lights. I also have a GHL Mini WiFi.

The Jr is bullet proof. It's ol'skool and just works. The EL intermittently connects to the network. Internal WiFi sucked, and it's now connected to an Ethernet to WiFi adaptor (and still sucks intermittently). Its replacement is still in the box. The DOS is stupid loud and feels cheap, but it works (AWC). The eKoral has required a hard reset twice for no reason. Irritating, and I wouldn't trust it for mission-critical work. The GHL devices have not failed and operate perfectly. Software is easy and intuitive. GHL PC software/mobile/web-based (Mac) setup is easy. As always, RTFM!

The arguments suggesting the Apex software is easier is user-dependent. It ain't for me. Given that I use all three ecosystems, eK is the easiest out of the box but falls on its face when pushed with complex tasks. The ProfiLux and Apex software is equally easy, but different. The software UX/UI isn't a differentiator.

The hardware is definitely a differentiator. GHL from now on.

Jim

How can anyone answer this if they have not run both for a while?

 

[DWill]

Correct, there is no built-in surge protection on the EnergyBars, only an overload circuit breaker. My EnergyBar plugs into a UPS backup battery which also provides surge protection. Here's a diagram from my tutorial on Apex Power Monitoring where I provide instructions on integrating the Apex with a UPS to preserve battery life during a power failure:

Wow, didn’t know there’s no surge protection on the energy bar. I have mine plugged into a GFI outlet. I don’t have a UPS yet. I will soon though. For now I’m going to plug the Apex into the power strip that has the cabinet lights and iPad power plugged into it.

 

[DWill]

I have an Apex (two EB8, DOS, FMM) and I also have a GHL KH Director. I've never had a problem with my Apex and it's done everything I need it to. The KH Director has been great as well though I've only had it for a few months.

The two differences I've noticed are:

-The GHL is built like a tank. Not that the Apex is weak physically but the GHL just seems like a stronger product design wise.
-The GHL is has a lot more options and a lot more buttons to push in the software. It may be because it's less focused on statement programming and more on option selection and data tables. I like it but I'm also a technical person. The Apex programming seems complicated at first but it's very straightforward and easy to understand once you're past the initial hump.

I think you'll be happy either way.

I agree with your assessment regarding Apex programmin. I got my Apex about two weeks ago and I struggled with programming. Just the simple things were very difficult. Whats made a little more difficult than it needs to be at least for me, is that the documentation from Apex is either way over a beginners head or is so overly simplified (the getting started guides) that when you use them you’re left with a “now what do I do feeling”. There’s no middle ground extreme beginner and well versed user. It’s very frustrating.

However, the support from the user base is AWESOME and if you reach out to Neptune their support is equally AWESOM at my experience with their support was beyond outstanding.

That said. I’m probably not the “typical” buyer. I know what I wanted to do and wanted it done “now” and I want to do it perfect the first time. I’m kinda like that with everything.

Being the way I am and having ZERO background knowledge of any form of coding; yeah I put myself on a vertical learning curve and set myself up for a lot of frustration. Thankfully the people in the community helped me and continue to do so and I e learned I kinda need to slow down a little.

 

[robbyg]

Went from an RKE to a Profilux so I can't speak about the reliability of an Apex. My decision was based on the Apex was similar to the RKE, modular, the Profilux had most of what I use on the main unit. One issue I had was with the Vortech controller, I know a module , where it doesn't have the QD functions. Support kept telling me it wasn't a problem, it was a known issue but the Profilux 4 was in development so the 3 was a non issue. Updating the firmware can be a pain, I found the easiest thing to do is to just skip right to a recovery flash. GHL connect is useless to me, truly 9 out of 10 times it fails to connect and when it does it's so slow it disconnects just changing a page and I have problems connecting to the web server so using it remotely isn't going to happen for me till I figure that out. I can connect over my network to the GCC program without issue, and this is how I program the controller. Trial and error on programming logic, their forum wasn't very helpful with that.

With that said, once running, I haven't had any issues in the 8 years I've had it. Support improved once their presence in America increased, no small part due to Vinny.

Thank you. That is one of the main points I keep trying to stress to people. All the learning curves and problems you may encounter on setup mean absolutely nothing in the long term. Once the controller is setup and running properly you will rarely go back in and change anything. In your case it may have been a week or two of frustration followed by a system that is transparently running for 8 years. That is why I stress that reliability is the Key factor and everything else is secondary.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I've been a long time user of Neptune products(ACIII, Apex lite, and now 2016 Apex), although as @robbyg has pointed out, from an engineering standpoint, there are some head scratching that goes on when you actually look at some of the components, and why they were used.

With that said, locally I have 2 good friends that have went from apex to GHL and wish they went GHL to begin with. And a 3rd friend that is on the fence and still running both systems. His opinion seems to tilt towards GHL as well.

Personally, given the choice between the 2. I'm gonna stick with my apex out of sheer convenience.