Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.

[jda]

So it is OK for him to give out bad advice just because LFS do? When have you ever seen me defend bad advice from a LFS? Shouldn't both be admonished?

There are solid, reliable people who have weighed in on this and have been discounted. Links to real science and places to read and learn also discounted. People who he led astray also discounted as haters and trolls - there are plenty. It is out there.

I have laid this out before, so you can go back and read, but nearly everything that brandon takes credit for would have happened anyway. Probably not everything, but nearly all... from sand swaps to cycles. It was no secret before that API ammonia test kit was junk, but putting it out there for more people to see is a good thing.

 

[92Miata]

I have no real opinion on bottled bacteria. There is no real proof that it does anything, but also none that it hurts anything either.

I'm sorry, but this is just straight up nonsense.


We've been using prepackaged nitrifying bacterial cultures to cycle tanks in institutions since the 70s. Like, we've got more than 50 years of evidence that you can culture nitrifying bacteria, and use it to cycle fish tanks.

Elevated ammonia does hurt fish, even if they live - this is a known fact of science. Asking to prove that it does not is rubbish.

You keep stating this despite the fact that LITERALLY NO ONE is arguing otherwise. You're Don Quixote here dude - it's a windmill.


You're doing nothing in this thread but making personal attacks and fighting strawman.

 

[brandon429]

92Miata, Cell, and Peace River before the close button:

I appreciate your efforts to guide the thread and keep it in perspective before it derails. You two are excellent friends.


Peace River, my specific plan to deal with JDA and Homebrood is to make sure both are on block from right now, I’ll never see their posts.


They’ll be able to berate my work in other threads in the future, without guidance, and I won’t even know. Just for this one thread I’m asking ahead of time for you not to lock because they showed up (been running a year before them)


I will simply interact with other posters and you’ll see it turn out worldly different than if I was reading JDAs and brood’s posts.

Heck if Cell didn’t have my back I would not have seen JDA write such attack, to be able to call it out. The only way I can save my threads is to ignore two folks who are allowed to show up in new posts and do damage I largely won’t see. Understood. It’s the price of doing post work here, savage trolling will occur at times, aware.


hey

if anyone has some ammonia measurements they’d like to offer, that would be great

 

[brandon429]

What was predicted in post #4 two years ago





this is a great topic to cover.

It’s controversial but needed to know; fish + bottle bac cycling is the #1 most common cycling method in the hobby with over a million searchable posts to comb for patterns.


Dont be mad at me for inspecting the trends on file. I’m directly asking for helpful digital nh3 measures in the matter, someone go buy the new hanna meter for $59 (cheapest digital nh3 read on the market) and supply us that data in simple bucket cycling tests using bottle bac. It only reads out to the hundredths ppm not thousandths, but that’s enough to rule in or out known toxicity levels for common marine animals like lysmata shrimp and clownfish

HI784 Marine Ammonia checker is Hanna’s latest handheld colorimeter | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Hanna Instruments has added a saltwater-specific ammonia tester to its popular checker lineup. Joining the existing freshwater High, Low, and Medium range ammonia checkers this latest device for…

reefbuilders.com

I can’t wait for someone to show where these patterns aren‘t a continual collection of no symptoms, looking sharp reefs. Right up till month eight when the fish start dropping off like flies. The way to disagree creatively here is by relaying data or patterns you see or have found that show fish being burned by free ammonia during initial cycle + bottle bac. That’s the sole thing we care about, we need to see actual measures OR symptomatic posts to verify their position in the million + logged cycles on bottle bac we can click to see if the fish look burnt or not.

 

[jda]

I have never used bottled bacteria and all of my tanks cycled and cycled well. Are you saying that it is necessary, that people cannot get by without it, or what? What are you saying that it does that would not have happened anyway? Is this a timing thing? Are you saying that it just happens faster?

I won't argue that it might speed things up. I just have no opinion on whether somebody should use it since the same stuff can happen anyway without just like plenty of bad things can happen with it.

This is not about bottled bacteria, at least to me.

You need to go back and read a lot of more threads if you don't think that he has said that fish are not hurt in cycles. True, some of it might have been edited, but that was a huge thing... no death meant no proof... it happened. It was said... maybe not in bold and all caps, but it was said a lot.

 

[jda]

I don't want to see any threads closed. People should be able to espouse their advice in a manner that is open to criticism and transparency. This all should be allowed at r2r if the hobby is put first. If somebody needs to hide and operate in secrecy for their voices to be heard, then people should be able to see this behavior since it says all that you need to know about the person.

I would like to see brandons ability to edit posts cease. He does not use the editing in a helpful way or to change typos, errors, but instead chooses to use it to change narratives after the fact, hide embarrassing things and otherwise be shady. It is not above board.

I know that it is easy to just blame me since I am posting right now, but I am not the only one. There are others and will be more again.

 

[MnFish1]

Rich I'm in full agreement.

Even the rare times where bottle bac was fully dead, and I've never come across this one time in thousands of online cycles logged to completion and several where Seneye was tracking the progress, dilution and potential secondary inputs of filtration bacteria are carrying the system until the critical day ten mark (the ammonia drop time shown on any cycle chart)


though we need more data to know what happens across every bottle bac cycle, the available seneye fish+bottle bac cycles sure seem to agree also, that bottle bac + fish + huge dilution isn't allowing ammonia noncontrol to push nh3 above safety thresholds.

The statement: "cycling with fish and bottle bac harms fish" is one of the enduring misnomers in reefing. that statement is one thousand percent coming from API owners who have not converted that slight green ammonia reading nh4 into the correct nh3 reading we factor in reef tanks. when they do, it's within safety spec and the behavior of their fish lines up with the reading, but not as an initial nh4 read.

when people who report ammonia alerts are trained to read their sample as 12x~ lower before reporting, and that no tank runs with zero nh3, they feel alot better before making the panic relay.

Most of those people are not following the instructions on the API test kit - which state - (paraphrased) - you need to use the value that appears closest to the test picture - not average the 2 pictures - i.e. if it looks mostly 'yellow' - the result is 0. If the amount looks closer to the green - its 0.25. In either case - 0.25 - is mostly a non-issue - if its not rising. Since there are at least 5 products out there currently that say 'add fish and bacteria on day 1'. I've done it for 10 years. That said - IMHO - the Fritz bacteria - seems to be more nitrifiers than heterotrophs - which would be more recommended.

By the way - this is NOT the same procedure as adding a clown to a tank with nothing - its adding x (5, 10, IDK) - fish to a tank - and following instructions - having no problems

 

[happyhourhero]

I think the one saving grace is that 95% of the content of his posts are complete drivel.

 

[MnFish1]

Prove that somebody hurt me and I am not just adverse to people who reef off the work of others and the internet with no real experience and are in it for themselves. Work threads only please. Bounty is unclaimed.

In all honesty, these threads hurt the people new to the hobby, so they at least need to know if they want to listen to a charlatan. They have to be told often since they come around often and don't have the history that all of the rest of us do. If they want to, then cool. Too many upset to find out later that they were duped by somebody who had no real experience. I have almost thirty years of build threads and he has links. Believe who you want. If anybody has been around for a while, you can tell what is what from the people who like my posts versus his - there is a demarcation of experience and success there.

Im going to respectfully disagree. There is science behind the experiments that Dr. Reef has done - and there is my own experience. I have never waited 'weeks or months' to 'cycle a tank' since bottled bacteria became available - and since I've been blocked at least twice by @brandon429 - its clear we have had our series of arguments.

IMHO - it comes down to:

1. The bioload
2. The type of rock (live rock being more forgiving)
3. the type of bacteria used - anyone can look up @Dr. Reef 's experiments - read them and decide what makes sense. IMHO

Bacteria is bacteria - always was - always has been. Within 3 months a piece of cement in the ocean is 'live rock'.

The reason - again IMHO - 'new reefers' fail is not because of bottled bacteria - its their own inexperience, no RODI, No knowledge of how much to feed (IMHO - many people feeding 2-3-4 times/day - are mistaken - I feed once/day for example).

In any case - there is absolutely no question - that one can have a successful dry-rock tank - (as in my signature) - with bottled bacteria. (Until their (xxxx) controller fails 3x. (BTW - this is not covered vulgarity - merely not listing the brand)

 

[MnFish1]

Prove that somebody hurt me and I am not just adverse to people who reef off the work of others and the internet with no real experience and are in it for themselves. Work threads only please. Bounty is unclaimed.

In all honesty, these threads hurt the people new to the hobby, so they at least need to know if they want to listen to a charlatan. They have to be told often since they come around often and don't have the history that all of the rest of us do. If they want to, then cool. Too many upset to find out later that they were duped by somebody who had no real experience. I have almost thirty years of build threads and he has links. Believe who you want. If anybody has been around for a while, you can tell what is what from the people who like my posts versus his - there is a demarcation of experience and success there.

I have nearly double your experience - and I disagree to a degree. BUT - I will say - that its not as simple as suggested. I.e. you cant just add dead rock, 7 tangs, a bottle of Fritzyme to a 55 gallon tank - and be successful - necessarily. MAYBE - but highly doubtful. Bioload is key IMHO..

 

[MnFish1]

I have no real opinion on bottled bacteria. There is no real proof that it does anything, but also none that it hurts anything either. I am mostly of the opinion that if people want to use it, then cool... At best, or worst, it is a tool that needs to be used in conjunction with a lot of other tools to achieve a goal. It does not need to be used, so nobody can say that it is a necessary too. It is just a tool.

My main issue is that the people who need this help need the help, obviously right... and it needs to come from people who know what they are talking about. Elevated ammonia does hurt fish, even if they live - this is a known fact of science. Asking to prove that it does not is rubbish. There are plenty of tanks that started with fish and bottled bacteria that have killed fish, and also plenty that have not. The same is true about tanks that uses fish gut bacteria for the cycle, or a shrimp (which I never understood), or live rock or whatever... The nuance and details matter too much to just ignore what you don't like and treat what you do like as a fact. If you keep the ammonia low, through whatever method, then you are going to be fine and the tank is going to cycle anyway - nobody needs to take credit for this. If you don't then you are going to have problems, even if a fish lives.

Dude has consistently refused to accept any real science that has been presented and has discounted failures that are dismissed as haters and trolls. This is not helpful to the people who need our help most. This is why I want them to understand that if they choose to follow his advice, what he is offering was against the advice of actual, real hobbyists that have done this (failures and successes), actual authors that have been peer reviewed (to some extent), pHd's in the field and also with choices to discount or try and silence those who say otherwise. You can cruise back through the beginning of his existence and see what people have linked, offered, etc. and it is all discounted as meaningless for whatever (the target has moved over time, but the current one is a seneye). The common denominator is somebody who is in this for some other reason than to actually help people.

Partially agree - partially disagree - Fritz - especially - has been documented repeatedly to work by @Dr. Reef . But - as in everyday life - there are going to be exepctions - with overstocking, etc etc etc. etc. The problem with @brandon429 's opinions - are taking a bunch of posts - and saying - those are the only ones - when there are actually plenty that have disagreed - but - if they do not appear in one of those threads - the threads become 'data'. But - the outliers are ignored (again just my opinion).

You IMHO - are absolutely correct - every 'cycling' method has failed. Every cycling method has succeeded.

On the other hand - I laugh - seriously - when I see person xxx say - ive been cycling my tank with ammonia for months - and just about ready to add fish - that IMHO - Is just as 'ludicrous'. Because - the science doesnt support that either. Ditto - for ordering live rock from Florida - then hiding it in a bin for 2 months lol. Its all nuts frankly IMHO.

 

[jda]

I don't think that we are disagreeing. I have no take on bottled bacteria - have seen it work plenty, but also have seen tanks using it fail. I mostly take issue with the presentation that have been said at times that it is Ok to be cavalier with stocking and feeding if you use bottled bacteria, taking credit for things that were going to happen anyway all without much nuance. It is the nuance that matters. Some of the bad posts have disappeared/edited over the years, but most of my point is that there is more at play here than just add a bottle and some fish and then either 1). add you to list of success if you do fine or 2). blame something else and discount your experience if it does not. People who are looking for help need the nuance and experience more than they need to be a tally mark on a sheet. I have an issue with the method, lack of experience, presenting selected threads and anecdotes as fact, ignoring others that do not fit the narrative and taking credit for things not done.

Actually, it does kinda seem like we are saying nearly the same thing, after reading the last few posts.

Cycles can be really easy... low stock, good test kit, feed sparingly and wait the appropriate amount of time. Patience. Temp Keep ammonia low. If you want to use some bacteria on rock/sand or in a bottle, then you might be able to speed up some things or otherwise limit bad things. There are no absolutes, so be smart and go slow. What did I miss?

I have posted a billion times (maybe not) about patience. I think that I am going to claim credit for patience. It has never failed. Prove that is has and claim a bounty.

 

[MnFish1]

You need to go back and read a lot of more threads if you don't think that he has said that fish are not hurt in cycles. True, some of it might have been edited, but that was a huge thing... no death meant no proof... it happened. It was said... maybe not in bold and all caps, but it was said a lot.

This - I think is true. The idea that you can take a picture of a tank with a 0.5 ammonia - and say 'its false' - because fish x, y, and z are swimming - and the cleaner shrimp looks fine is a fallacy.

Free ammonia - the toxic one - depends on pH, salinity and temp. The API test depends on how you do it - following directions, expiration, etc. A picture on day 1 with an ammonia of .5 - may be death on day 3 with a total ammonia of 3

 

[jda]

On the other hand - I laugh - seriously - when I see person xxx say - ive been cycling my tank with ammonia for months - and just about ready to add fish - that IMHO - Is just as 'ludicrous'. Because - the science doesnt support that either. Ditto - for ordering live rock from Florida - then hiding it in a bin for 2 months lol. Its all nuts frankly IMHO.

Yeah. This happens. They need experience and real help to get them through. They likely got some stupid advice from somebody about something and need helped through it with some understanding of what happened and what comes next.

I have heard people say to pee in your tank to complete the cycle. None of them know that urea and not ammonia, what urese bacteria are, etc. Just saying that XYZ method has never had a failure and to send a message for a proven solution is not actually helping. It takes more than this and anything short are distracts.

Besides, I would strongly encourage anybody without patience or self control to do a fish less cycle. Others that can control themselves can probably handle a cycle with fish. Again, nuance and details matter... which needs experience. This is no indictment on a particular method, rather an indictment on the indictment of a method for a particular person.

 

[brandon429]

MN thank you for thoughtful input.

Since we are talking measurements, for the love of pete, among trends in fish+ bottle bac cycles, this one stands out in my top three and its fairly recent.

New Cycle - Seneye vs API

Hello All, Have just started to cycle a new DD ReefPro 900. Am using Fritzzyme Fishless food and Turbo Start and am 2 days in. I have dosed twice with Fishless food on the back of the seneye readings which are as follows: But the API result seems to be showing a different story. I`ve seen a...

www.reef2reef.com

why that thread applies here:

it is a seneye, plus api, tracked day one cycle using fritz bottle bac. it is a day one bottle bac cycle on digital nh3 charting, the #1 thing I'm asking to see in detractions posted. it shows a dayslong slow lag time for api to report a drop that happened day one. every stuck cycle thread on the planet is exemplified in this thread above, but only to pattern watchers.

if someone owns api and runs that test, they have a FAILED cycle and are panicking and think they are harming fish (that look normal all day every day) and post about dead bacteria and a stalled cycle. they will re buy more bacteria. Not because of true ammonia noncontrol, but because of Nh4 nonconversion on a non digital kit looking greenish.


and if the tank owner has seneye, then we can see nothing was wrong the entire time. stark differences, ran without fish in an ethical load-bearing setup. he has our ideal test there- no fish present for load bearing tests.

I realize my points are often made with other's posts, but they still remain the only pertinent readings we see of all of the pages here. I'm finding trends that reflect on the #1 cycling mode, and that thread above is a big deal in uncovering hidden patterns we'll never understand until everyone has a digital nh3 tester.

*that thread also backs seneye pretty well by taking the actual unit measuring the cycle as safe, moving it into a known running + cycled nano reef, and getting the same nh3 readings as the cycling tank***

that form of calibration is very, very powerful in documenting toxicity levels in the suspect cycling display.

the ability to prove a baseline on a running reef and then use that same seneye for a bottle bac cycle is soooo important, and rare among cycling measurements

 

[brandon429]

by the thread listed above

if someone had some clownfish in that huge cycled display, on that api reading, every cycle umpire posting here would agree (Except Cell, you can't trip him up, nor DBurr) that the fish is in impending pain though it is acting normal everyday and feeding, swimming normally.


that's the heart of this thread. the seneye directly shows there zero toxicity from start to finish. that cycling reef ran from day one what the fully cycled nano runs daily in terms of bottom line ammonia averages. the test nano contains a bunch of corals and a fish, which are also symptomless/ and what did api do? get green and stay green for twelve straight days lol.

*we don't actually have to own an nh3 meter to discern repeating cycling rules that apply to us all. let's see how that prediction plays out in 2026, we have lots of back-claims to measure here yep. the tiny clues people are posting themselves unveil new changes in cycling science coming.

 

[Arego]

This thread is like a one leg man in an a**kicking contest. People will do what they do. The hobby gets enough flack long before the fish reaches your tank during collection and shipping, whether during a cycle or not lol.

I don't think the bad reputation comes from whether your ammonia levels are too high for a fish. That said, I don't do it, but I also don't care if someone else does. I. Not educated enough to prove either in or out fish cycles, so I do what I feel is ethical, that is all. And I don't try to impose my ethics on others. Oh well.

 

[JumboShrimp]

I like to just drop in a Damsel, and then open a packet of “Pop Rocks” and sprinkle some in… to help ‘buffer’ the water.

 

[brandon429]

At no time in my reefing life would I personally ever own a dry rock cycled reef. Never.

The next time I want to make a reef it will be a trip to the best looking pet store display and I will begin offering them cash for a few pounds of their actual live rock from the best display. eventually they’ll break and sell me some and then I would take it home and not cycle. That is the only way I’ve ever cycled my jar reefs


Just because bottle bac sellers are routinely inspected and found able to sell us working water bacteria in water doesn’t mean a new host of risks hasn’t emerged from speeding up bioload carry. There are new risks, but not in ammonia control.

entering the hobby: a wave of eight month delayed disease wipeouts, where even those who complete a legit 30 day wait cycle don’t gain any disease prevention % ability. Per any page of the disease forum help posts...

The classic cycles waited to full zero ammonia on api, comprise the bulk of all disease help posts…fact. Bottle bac cyclers aren’t causing increased rates of disease vs those who buy live rock from a tank of mixed pet store fish and not fallow it. Disease is the new trend to watch out for, ammonia control has been here the whole time of the hobby. the delay in getting cheap digital nh3 meters is causing us to not know true change rates and true nh3 trending rates in both cycled and mature display setups.


someone buy the $59 nh3 tester and run it on a working reef to calibrate it as a baseline known safe level constant

then run cheap bucket cycling test proofs with it referencing that known working safe baseline

and post those measures

 

[mindme]

I've been instant cycling my tanks for 12 years. I roll my eyes when people do things like putting their rocks in water for 6 months etc. It's your tank, but I think it's worthless.

I will go so far as to say it's the best way to cycle a tank. The reason I say that is because on my very first tank I did the old fashioned waiting a month for everything to turn into nitrate. And then I ordered my fish, and put them in the tank. A few days later I do a test and there is ammonia in the tank.

I figure either 1 of 2 things happened. 1 my cycle was too weak to handle the bioload I put in, or 2 my cycle died without more food being added to it in time.

So I look up a solution and see the biosphere stuff in a bottle, run out to petco and pick it up, add it in the tank. Problem solved, never saw any ammonia after that. Automatically get the amount of bacteria you need for your bioload from day 1. Why wait for the same result....or worse?

What in fish cycles actually were was where people would take a damsel and 0 bacteria into a tank. Then feed the fish, so the ammonia would have to build up and all the bacteria would need to form while the fish was in the tank.

That is completely different than putting in fish and bacteria at the same time.