Out of ideas and need advice

[Renee180]

So I will start off with, I have been doing this a long, long time and should know how to fix this! I feel as if I have had a million " oh ya, that is what the problem is" and then I spend a fortune fixing the "problem", but somehow, everything still looks, well, not so great. So sorry for the LONG write up, but I think it is the only way to really explain the situation and all the parameters.
I have mostly softies, and 3 nice sized frogspawns/hammer corals. This system has been up and running since 2009. The first 2 years were amazing, with amazing growth in everything, and mushrooms 5" plus in size. People who would see my tank, had never seen them that big, including the frog/hammer. I bought a hammer/frog with 3 heads, at one point it was over 100, and it didn't take long to get there.

I have been having issues with cyano since 2013. The first found fix was the protein skimmer had a calcium buildup/block in a hard to find location, so it was not working properly. Then I felt as if the flow was not working properly. So I bought a new pump, "identical". Nothing really seemed better.
Then added more powerheads. Then I changed lights from T5 to led. Aqua UFO led, they looked nice, but found out about a year later they really didn't have enough watts. So changed out all lights to Mars Aqua 165 watt less (3). Have been using them since Jan. 2016. Not really thinking they are the ticket either. Really no change in corals. Only feed once a day. Have always only had the 4 small fish, maroon, tang, and 2 lyre tail anthers. Have always used RO/DI. The filter reads .-01 on TDS. (Well Water). Filtered coming in with house filter, and then through the RO/DI unit. Have always used the Tropic Marin Pro Reef Salt. 180, with 100 gal sump (about 65 gallons water with live rock and skimmer in it). Always have used High Capacity GFO from Bulk Reef Supply, and Carbon Roc from Bulk Reef. Tank is in a basement so temp never changes or fluctuates from 76-78. PH always seems to be 8.2.
Also had a very small amount of crushed coral, which I have removed all together about 3 months ago, still no change in tank condition. Lots of live rock, guessing at least 200 lbs. equally placed in the tank and sump.
So in this time I have lost many mushrooms,(that I used to give away by the handfuls) , almost a gorgonian, but is now looking good and open polyps, 1/3 at least of my hammer/frog, green tree sinularia as NO polyps open for months now, and just recently the frog/hammer is looking better but not out of the woods I fear.
montis gone, whiskers duncan gone, mushrooms are either lost/gone or shriveled to about 1", lost sebea anemone that was about 18" that I had for over 9 years, and at one point I had a huge population of brittle stars and starfish (little ones on the glass), but now have NO brittle stars, but still the little ones on the glass,much smaller population (unsightly), these never existed when my tank was at its peak of greatness, etc it seems as if the list goes on and on. The hair algae took over about 6 months ago and I finally broke down and treated the tank on March 24 with red sea NO3PO4. Which has worked amazingly, there are still remains but it is dying and then cyano took over, but it appears to be dying now too. Nitrates are 0, phosphates say 0, but I am sure they are not, as I believe they are the main issue, but feel they are decreasing too. I have been using the reef a and b by red sea as they direct along with the NO3Po4. Alk is good, mag is high 1200-1600 at different times, The only thing that stands out is the calcium is low and even with adding Reef Fusion 1 and 2 by sea chem for a month now, it is still low. 320. It fluctuates from 310-360, but is usually low. Do weekly wc of about 15-30 gallons., ( for the last year now) And things look awful after. Used to do larger ones , less frequent 50 gal every 24 weeks.
I have recently added another pump so my flow rate is now at 2200 gallons per hr, which has doubled my flow, again, something I thought has always been an issue, ( one week now ) but NO change in corals, still!! I really am about ready to hang it up after 20 years of doing this, I am at a loss of what to try next that isn't throwing money at the wrong fix.
SO PLEASE hit me with a real fix! I want a beautiful thriving tank once again

 

[Oceansize]

How are you supplementing alkalinity and calcium? Manually? Dosing pumps? Calcium reactor? Odd that Alk would be normal while Mag is high and Calcium is low.

How are you feeding the coral? You might have too few fish to provide much in the way of nutrients, therefore supplementary feeding could be paramount in your case.

How are you achieving nitrate export aside from water changes (prior to using NoPox)? It is hard to know what benefit a 15-30 gallon water change would have without knowing the system volume. All we know is that your Sump is about 65 gallons.

In a large tank with frequent water changes, 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates, and coral still declining, my first guess is nutrients are too low and feeding needs to be stepped up. But you've also got GHA, so maybe low nutrients aren't the issue.

Understanding that tests can read low if there are organics eating up what the test is testing for, if you're looking for that extra "oomph" to really clarify the water, I have had great success using an in-line 9W UV bulb. That plus keeping phosphates below 0.03 ppm have been the biggest factors in keeping the Cyano out of my tank (and O nitrates is what keeps the GHA out, at least in my case). Adequate feeding plus stable alk and calcium are what have turned my coral around.

I guess my point is, knowing that your system is already ULNS, UV could really help your GHA/Cyano problem without the need to dose additives and all the balance issues they might introduce. But that doesn't address the coral decline directly (excess GHA/Cyano could be using nutrients that the coral would otherwise enjoy and therefore their eradication could improve the available nutrients to the coral), but in a ULNS system you're still going to want to manually feed.

Sorry if this isn't much help...grasping at straws here...

 

[glb]

When your tank started to decline, which parameters were out of whack?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

[HASHTAG]#reefsquad[/HASHTAG]
@Diesel

 

[Diesel]

IMO you have a lot of things going on here, low nutrients, to much dosing and probably a bad batch of GFO.
Using GFO and redssea NO/POX is doubling up your nutrient removal.
By dosing the nutrients in your tank you feed only your GHA before corals can take it.
UV really doesn't do much in this case as only suspended matter that passes the UV light will be damaged or killed.
GHA on rock/sand will just grow as happy as always.
Cyano can be a different story as the bad bacteria that spread through your tank in the water column can pass the UV light and dies instantly.
Lets get back to basics if you want to have a nice tank, change water twice a week (need to know your tank volume) dose every other day bacteria in your tank recommended for a existing running tank.
How many fish do you have and what kind?
What kind of corals?
Size of tank and sump?
Refugium and what's in it?
Return pump size and power heads in tank how many and what size?
Clean up crew?
ALK, CAL and MAG?
No3?
Po4?
Potasium (K)?
PH moring and evening swing?
Temp in the morning and late afternoon.
What kind of salt are you using and what's your SG level?
RODI water and how often you replace the filters and in what order?
Do you run Activated Carbon and what kind?
What kind of GFO?
All what you dose and the amount of it?
Did you check for stray voltage?
Check all pumps and moving parts if you don't have any oxidation?
Check sump and overflow for strange objects, metal parts, razor blades, screws?
Do you have a pest control company make a regular visit?
What is your Co2 level in your house?
Can you show us some pictures of your tank and closeups from your corals?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

IMO you have a lot of things going on here, low nutrients, to much dosing and probably a bad batch of GFO.
Using GFO and redssea NO/POX is doubling up your nutrient removal.
By dosing the nutrients in your tank you feed only your GHA before corals can take it.
UV really doesn't do much in this case as only suspended matter that passes the UV light will be damaged or killed.
GHA on rock/sand will just grow as happy as always.
Cyano can be a different story as the bad bacteria that spread through your tank in the water column can pass the UV light and dies instantly.
Lets get back to basics if you want to a nice tank, change water twice a week (need to know your tank volume) dose every other day bacteria in your tank recommended for a existing running tank.
How many fish do you have and what kind?
What kind of corals?
Size of tank and sump?
Refugium and what's in it?
Return pump size and power heads in tank how many and what size?
Clean up crew?
ALK, CAL and MAG?
No3?
Po4?
Potasium (K)?
PH moring and evening swing?
Temp in the morning and late afternoon.
What kind of salt are you using and what's your SG level?
RODI water and how often you replace the filters and in what order?
Do you run Activated Carbon and what kind?
What kind of GFO?
All what you dose and the amount of it?
Did you check for stray voltage?
Check all pumps and moving parts if you don't have any oxidation?
Check sump and overflow for strange objects, metal parts, razor blades, screws?
Do you have a pest control company make a regular visit?
What is your Co2 level in your house?
Can you show us some pictures of your tank and closeups from your corals?

Ladies and Gentlemen............The Man.

thx dude

 

[melypr1985]

IMO you have a lot of things going on here, low nutrients, to much dosing and probably a bad batch of GFO.
Using GFO and redssea NO/POX is doubling up your nutrient removal.
By dosing the nutrients in your tank you feed only your GHA before corals can take it.
UV really doesn't do much in this case as only suspended matter that passes the UV light will be damaged or killed.
GHA on rock/sand will just grow as happy as always.
Cyano can be a different story as the bad bacteria that spread through your tank in the water column can pass the UV light and dies instantly.
Lets get back to basics if you want to a nice tank, change water twice a week (need to know your tank volume) dose every other day bacteria in your tank recommended for a existing running tank.
How many fish do you have and what kind?
What kind of corals?
Size of tank and sump?
Refugium and what's in it?
Return pump size and power heads in tank how many and what size?
Clean up crew?
ALK, CAL and MAG?
No3?
Po4?
Potasium (K)?
PH moring and evening swing?
Temp in the morning and late afternoon.
What kind of salt are you using and what's your SG level?
RODI water and how often you replace the filters and in what order?
Do you run Activated Carbon and what kind?
What kind of GFO?
All what you dose and the amount of it?
Did you check for stray voltage?
Check all pumps and moving parts if you don't have any oxidation?
Check sump and overflow for strange objects, metal parts, razor blades, screws?
Do you have a pest control company make a regular visit?
What is your Co2 level in your house?
Can you show us some pictures of your tank and closeups from your corals?

Ummm. ^^^ What he said +1 to pictures

 

[Triggreef]

One small thing, is Ca you said is very low. Under 370 will make it near impossible for corals to use it. Under 360 I believe seems to be the low point and anything under that might as well be 200 because growth is non existent at that point.

I'd love to know your system volume and fish load and how much no3po4 your dosing as I'm thinking about going that route.

 

[Cory]

Please tell me how old are your test kits, and what brand.

Been lots of issues over the years with faulty test kits. If your monti is gone, id suspect alk. What test for alk?

1.135 grams of baking soda in 1 gallon ro/di water = 10dkh

 

[scardall]

How are you supplementing alkalinity and calcium? Manually? Dosing pumps? Calcium reactor? Odd that Alk would be normal while Mag is high and Calcium is low.

How are you feeding the coral? You might have too few fish to provide much in the way of nutrients, therefore supplementary feeding could be paramount in your case.

How are you achieving nitrate export aside from water changes (prior to using NoPox)? It is hard to know what benefit a 15-30 gallon water change would have without knowing the system volume. All we know is that your Sump is about 65 gallons.

In a large tank with frequent water changes, 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates, and coral still declining, my first guess is nutrients are too low and feeding needs to be stepped up. But you've also got GHA, so maybe low nutrients aren't the issue.

Understanding that tests can read low if there are organics eating up what the test is testing for, if you're looking for that extra "oomph" to really clarify the water, I have had great success using an in-line 9W UV bulb. That plus keeping phosphates below 0.03 ppm have been the biggest factors in keeping the Cyano out of my tank (and O nitrates is what keeps the GHA out, at least in my case). Adequate feeding plus stable alk and calcium are what have turned my coral around.

I guess my point is, knowing that your system is already ULNS, UV could really help your GHA/Cyano problem without the need to dose additives and all the balance issues they might introduce. But that doesn't address the coral decline directly (excess GHA/Cyano could be using nutrients that the coral would otherwise enjoy and therefore their eradication could improve the available nutrients to the coral), but in a ULNS system you're still going to want to manually feed.

Sorry if this isn't much help...grasping at straws here...

In ULNS your corals will need Amino Acids. I recomend ME Extender (Amino acid) https://mecoral.com/product/me-amino-polyp-extender/ good luck

 

[Diesel]

Ladies and Gentlemen............The Man.

thx dude

Nah, I didn't do anything yet.
We still have to find the problem.

 

[Renee180]

Wow, thank you for any and all responses! Looks like I will start another book here
Tank 180, Actual gallons of water? Not sure with the live rock, amd not sure of how many lbs of that.
So not off to a good start. Here is my best guess.
140-200lbs of live rock split between the sump and the display tank.
The sump is 100 gal, tank with 65 gal of water
Tank guessing 155 gal water
Test kits, new nitrate and mag, nyos, from bulk reef
Brand new hanna phosphate testkit, (worthless)
Older api phosphate, both test the same 0, assuming worthless also.
Old calcium, alk, salifert. Will buy new and re-test

3-16-16
Nitrates 25, phosphates ? 0, calc 360, alk 1.90, khd 5.90., temp olds study at 77-78 almost never changes,
Ph whenever tested it has always been 8-8.2. , mag 1600, salinity with a refract 1.025,
Have always used high capicity GFO bulk reef and roc their carbon. Have been changing out gfo every 2 weeks since all the gha issues, (6-8 months now) but 1x month before that.

4 small fish, purple tang 3-4 ", maroon 4-5", 2 lyretail anthias, 2" and 4". Feed once a day rods, or formula flakes green bottle, piscinc mysis shrimp then the seaweed clip is filled 0-1 times every 2 days,
Not much left for clean up crew, a few hermits. Bare bottom (now)
Aqua c sump protein skimmer, 2 little giant pumps 4mdqx sc. Should be around 2100-2200 gph total
1- koralin pump 4 , 1- koralin evolution pump 6, and one more pump a little less powerful than the k6

Started Dosing (slowly in high moving area, 2 capfuls each of fusion 1 and 2, (was dosin4 each). The alk raised to a normal level and the calc dropped! Somedays it was at 380, one day it was at 320. The alk went up to 2.7 and kh 7.6

Started dosing No3po4 3-24-16, 10 ml for a few days no change so slowly up it to 20ml.
It took about 3 weeks for the nitrates to come down to 3, then you were to cut in half dose, to 10ml, which I did but it kept dropping and today is still at 0 nitrates, and i have been dosing only 5 ml for the last week
No ill effects were seen on corals or fish, but the gha, turned brown and there. was a slight slimy feel to everything . Now the cyano is taking over, and there is still remains of stubborn hair algae, though it is brown. ( keep in mind , no ill effects, other than,
The corals already looked bad). The worst is the sinular green tree, then green striped mushrooms,
Then pipe organ , and hairy mushrooms. Colt corals look awful too. Frog spawn looks only ok and some other type of hairy mushrooms look good. A gorgonian llooks great one half and the other half wont open.
It says to keep dosing so it can go after the phosphates which I am doing and also have been running the gfo the whole time the water itself is very clear, not green when i do water changes like it used to be before the no3po4.
I am dosing with 10ml of red sea reef energy a and b as directed by red sea when using no3po4. To help the corals.
I will post new tstings of all tomorrow after I get a few new test kits.
Im sure i missed a few things you asked for , again really appreciate the help

 

[Renee180]

 

[Renee180]

So as you can see in the photos nothing really looks all the great. The photo with the 3 hairy mushrooms is about as good as things get. No poylps on the green tree, same for the colt coral. The frog/hammer is only so so, and the other hairy mushroom is only half the size it normally is. You can see they cyano and the remains of the gha too. I also see some ill affects coming now on the poor maroon as he has lost his anemone and is getting pretty beat up trying to host other "things". I think I may have to take him out and treat. Ripped up fins, cloudy eyes, and white patchy areas, not ick, that is junk in the water column stirred up. Melafix was suggested? Sound ok? I know I have used furan or maracyn way way in the past with no problems.

 

[nervousmonkey]

Started Dosing (slowly in high moving area, 2 capfuls each of fusion 1 and 2, (was dosin4 each). The alk raised to a normal level and the calc dropped! Somedays it was at 380, one day it was at 320. The alk went up to 2.7 and kh 7.6

Started dosing No3po4 3-24-16, 10 ml for a few days no change so slowly up it to 20ml.
It took about 3 weeks for the nitrates to come down to 3, then you were to cut in half dose, to 10ml, which I did but it kept dropping and today is still at 0 nitrates, and i have been dosing only 5 ml for the last week
No ill effects were seen on corals or fish, but the gha, turned brown and there. was a slight slimy feel to everything . Now the cyano is taking over, and there is still remains of stubborn hair algae, though it is brown.

First off, what @Diesel said. Looking forward to his diagnosis, but in the meantime I think you have a couple things going on, but in general, you have a water chemistry imbalance issue, from alk, calcium, magnesium, NO3, PO4, and most likely a lot of other things that we can't measure, but I bet you also have a potassium imbalance also.
I would stop making changes to your tank, just get the basics in line then start fixing the N to P imbalance. What are your NO3 and PO4 levels now??
Let's start with alk and calc. If you are dosing two caps of reef fusion 1 and 2, that's definitely not enough. The amount should be 1 ml per 6.5 gallons, where one capful is 5 ml. So, you need to correct the alk and calc imbalance. Here is an article that's part of a series of articles about how to correct alk and calcium:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/
Next up is water changes. As Diesel said, more frequent water changes. If you did a huge water change now, you could start to get the alk, calcium and magnesium in line. Do more frequent water changes, get the alk and calc and mag in line and I bet you will start to see happier corals.
The "slime" you feel is the bacterial growth from the NoPox dosing. Cyano is super common with NoPox.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/red-sea-nopox-additive.175054/
Randy has a lot of advice on water chemistry and NoPox. If this were my tank, I would slowly start reducing the NoPox and potentially switch to vinegar dosing, which doesn't have as big an effect on cyano as NoPox and vodka (NoPox is just vodka and vinegar).
Hope this helps; don't start changing things quickly or adding anything to what you are doing. Slowly get the tank back where you want it and it will be like it was before. It'll take time but with work and patience, you'll see your tank change.

 

[Russ265]

gonna state the obvious...
before you play mad scientist with your glass cauldron, a good 50% wc will do you good.

i know it is simple... but it gets you half way there before tweaking again.

we can all tweak our tanks out of whack easily.

 

[nervousmonkey]

+1 squared to @Russ265

 

[Renee180]

Love that idea. Giant wc. I have been reading so much and most of the things said NOT to do that as it would shock everything. But to me, old school, that sounds like the first no brainer thing to do. Now how to hold that much water for that big of a water change!
F.loyd.taylor. Just one thing , it wasnt nopox it is NO3po4 from red sea , I don't think they are the same at all. Ha but I am not the chemist! I want to say the bottle says methanol, ethanol and alcohol and i think one more ingredient, but can't remember and don't have the box. Lol , I don't know maybe vodka is made of the same ingredient, it tastes pretty nasty! LOL

 

[Bdog4u2]

You should test your fresh saltwater mix tropic marin can be all over the place i use to use it but no 2 buckets ever tested the same but it did mix clearer than any salt ive ever used

 

[Renee180]

One small thing, is Ca you said is very low. Under 370 will make it near impossible for corals to use it. Under 360 I believe seems to be the low point and anything under that might as well be 200 because growth is non existent at that point.

I'd love to know your system volume and fish load and how much no3po4 your dosing as I'm thinking about going that route.

I am guessing the actual water is around 200 gallons of water which includes the sump. I started low with 15 ml. After a few days with no change I increased to 18ml, then waited a few days and upped it to 20ml.
I dosed the 20 ml in the last part of the sump 2-4 ml at a time, every ten min an hour before lights out.
After 3 weeks the nitrates were down to 3, and the gha was looking brown and slimy, but not really falling off, more like melting away. Then the cyano slowly started. As directed I then, cut back to 10ml (1/2) dose. But the nitrates kept dropping , 0, so i cut back to 5 ml. About a week.