Palytoxin Thread Apology.

[Timfish]

Here's a couple more papers indicating how wide psread palytoxin might potentially be:

Palytoxin congeners - PubMed

Palytoxin, isolated from a zoanthid of the genus Palythoa, is the most potent marine toxin known. Intoxication by palytoxin leads to vasoconstriction, hemorrhage, ataxia, muscle weakness, ventricular fibrillation, pulmonary hypertension, ischemia and death. Palytoxin and its numerous derivatives...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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[Frogspon]

HolySmoke this thread opened up a can of worms. I'm gonna assume Brandon and mellow are Far right conservatives and MN fish and Ben Pederson are progressive democrats. My head is spinning and my tank has palytoxin and deadly bacteria. I need a Xanax.

Opening an 'apology thread' starts to look like a slick way to skirt around your first thread getting locked when you quickly fall back into the same rhetoric. Labeling anyone that doesn't agree with you a looney far right extremist is a good way to get banned yo

 

[MnFish1]

O god what did I start. It wasn't related to politics just was a 2 vs 2 split for bacteria vs palytoxin. It was a bad joke and I think I need to just take your advice Mello and just relax, realize I will never have a definitive answer and I just will hope it doesn't happen again. My bet is still on Palytoxin strictly for respiratory distress alone. We have established though no way to know for sure.

FWIW - I wasn't suggesting it was bacteria - I think it was palytoxin. If you had a bacterial infection that was causing those symptoms you would have been a lot sicker - from what I've seen. I only mentioned the bacteria as other things that are 'rare' but cause problems.

 

[Mellotang]

I think a reaction to Vibrio is more common than palytoxin

be sure to was with regular old soap, do not use anti bacterial

you don’t want to kill all the bacteria on your skin, the beneficial bacteria that lives there all the time

just want to kill the Vibrio

 

[Mellotang]

I don’t see any problem with the thread

lots of good info here

been one of the better conversations on the forum

I don’t think HolySmoke is trying to cause any trouble

it was a joke

 

[HolySmoke]

FWIW - I wasn't suggesting it was bacteria - I think it was palytoxin. If you had a bacterial infection that was causing those symptoms you would have been a lot sicker - from what I've seen. I only mentioned the bacteria as other things that are 'rare' but cause problems

?? I had you and Ben pederson for palytoxin and mellow tang and Brandon for bacteria/any number of things in the tank

 

[HolySmoke]

I don’t see any problem with the thread

lots of good info here

been one of the better conversations on the forum

I don’t think HolySmoke is trying to cause any trouble

it was a joke

I totally agree. Very educational for me and I'm trying to keep an open mind. I'm leaning towards palytoxin. All symptoms are pointing me there and It's too coincidental that I have ugly brown button polyps notorious for palytoxin.

 

[MnFish1]

Wouldn't it have to be a large enough issue to warrant having blood tests to identify it? I skimmed the thread in question to pick up some reef hygiene tips, and there were multiple people who said that poison control/their doctors thought they were pulling some sort of prank when they mentioned palytoxin and that they had been handling corals. I'd guess that in North America you could not be tested for the presence of toxins from a poison dart frog or blue ringed octopus because theres no need to spends tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars on the necessary equipment and staff training to meet the demand of the one person who experiences it every other year.

@brandon429 I think this is exactly true. It would not make sense, for example, for a hospital in Wisconsin to have a 'test' for palytoxin available. Either way it is 'symtomatic treatment'. I think its a common misconception that every diagnosis has a 'specific test' to 'nail down the diagnosis'. In fact all tests have 'errors' (just like ammonia tests) - Most diagnoses are made on a clinical basis (i.e. diagnoses where you cant do a biopsy or other specific test). In other words if you play with your tank - and develop symptoms of palytoxin - its likely palytoxin - as compared to dengue fever.

 

[brandon429]

agreed this convo should not turn harsh. Holysmoke has written in a way to convey legit concern and relay of symptoms in my opinion, similar factors keep converging in these events it warrants more inspection, not to be cast aside. said even as a skeptic. the feeling of having valid info to relay and .001% believe you is not unfamiliar its quite good proving ground one day in hindsight... I know to look out for this trending in my own doubts.

 

[HolySmoke]

@MNFish you brought up another good point before that swayed me back towards palytoxin. Muscle atrophy or whatever your scientific term was. Poison control specifically told them to test and report those CDK numbers. My numbers when I got there were over 200. when I left they were trending down. But I had muscle breakdown.

That actually reminds me let my post up my whole blood test here maybe someone smarter than me can conclude some more info from it.

 

[MnFish1]

?? I had you and Ben pederson for palytoxin and mellow tang and Brandon for bacteria/any number of things in the tank

In all honesty it was difficult to understand what you were trying to say. But you're correct - I was more for palytoxin. As im sure everyone is aware - its often hard to sense 'tone and meaning' in written text

 

[MnFish1]

@MNFish you brought up another good point before that swayed me back towards palytoxin. Muscle atrophy or whatever your scientific term was. Poison control specifically told them to test and report those CDK numbers. My numbers when I got there were over 200. when I left they were trending down. But I had muscle breakdown.

That actually reminds me let my post up my whole blood test here maybe someone smarter than me can conclude some more info from it.

Rhabdomyolysis (causes elevated CPK) - and is seen with significant palytoxin poisoning and can be fatal (its basically muscle damage/breakdown - which can cause dangerous elevations in potassium, and damage the kidneys). Unless you ran a marathon - before you messed with your tank (or took cocaine lol) - it would be unlikely that and elevated CPK would be caused by anything else (when you also consider the other symptoms)

 

[sarcophytonIndy]

But on fair counter point not once has the compound been identified, in blood or serum to me that’s amazing. Usually medicine is pinpoint accurate. It seems fair to say folks are ~90% sure

thats the best we can do currently it seems. I know Dr’s wouldn’t entertain the notion if it was impossible. Is it true there is no test for it whatsoever?

In Julian Sprung's video he mentions that it is the second most powerful toxin, but doesn't elaborate. So it sounds like someone must have identified it and quantified it ??

 

[MnFish1]

I think a reaction to Vibrio is more common than palytoxin

be sure to was with regular old soap, do not use anti bacterial

you don’t want to kill all the bacteria on your skin, the beneficial bacteria that lives there all the time

just want to kill the Vibrio

The problem is vibrio is a bacterial infection that causes certain symptoms (blistering in the skin, that travels away from the 'wound'. If it enters the blood stream (systemic symptoms) - it can rapidly (within 24 hours) cause death. There would be symptoms of sepsis, fever, low blood pressure, etc etc. I dont think there is any way to tell which is more common. Mainly because there are so many people that probably have palytoxin exposure/illness that dont reports it. Whereas if you have a vibrio infection - you're going to go to the doctor because of GI symptoms (if ingested), or a severe skin infection if in a wound.

 

[MnFish1]

In Julian Sprung's video he mentions that it is the second most powerful toxin, but doesn't elaborate. So it sounds like someone must have identified it and quantified it ??

That is from animal studies. where they expose lets say 100 mice to x amount of toxin, and see how many die.

 

[TheStrangler]

HolySmoke, I read over your original post (while looking for safety tips) and I'm glad that you're feeling better. In retrospect, have you had a moment where you figured out what exactly your exposure likely came from? Personally, I'm trying to figure out exactly what measures to take when handling corals. Wearing gloves to protect against any bacteria or toxins entering cuts makes sense to me, I've been doing that all along. Wearing goggles to prevent squirts also makes sense. What I'm having a hard time getting my head around is the aerosol aspect. We've all seen the slime when zoas/palys are taken out of water, but theres a conflict of information between, this is a very volatile substance that will vaporize at room temperature and don't boil or pressure wash your rocks. I guess straight to the point of what I'm trying to figure out from your case, is A) If you were exposed to the aerosol version and B) If so, was it simply just pulling corals out of your tank and putting them into a container that allowed the toxins into the air, or if there was some sort of action that would forcibly aerosolize palytoxins. If simply removing them from the water with no other irritation and transporting them through the air was enough to make you ill, I'll have to spend more time on the mask aspect of inhalation prevention.

 

[Ben Pedersen]

This is a good discussion and warranted..

Without a definitive test, which is not possible, all is speculation with no proof. More important, there were symptoms after working on a salt water tank.

In summary, there can be bad things in your tank, be careful.. Know to the best of your ability what is in your tank and either avoid danger by excluding some organisms or take appropriate pro-cations.

Wash your hands and anything exposed after working in your tank, don't rub your moth or eyes while working in your tank.. Consider wearing eye protection and gloves.

If you do have a reaction after working with a tank, consider your symptoms and take appropriate actions. If symptoms are mild, don't be anxious.. drink lots of water and take it easy. If symptoms are sever, seek medical attention. Error on the side of caution.

 

[MnFish1]

I don’t see any problem with the thread

lots of good info here

been one of the better conversations on the forum

I don’t think HolySmoke is trying to cause any trouble

it was a joke

BTW - here is an interesting quote - Re: Vibrio and palytoxin: "Certain bacteria might be able to produce palytoxin and may be the actual producers in some of the organisms listed above. Bacteria that have some evidence of palytoxin or its analogue production include Pseudomonas, Brevibacterium, Acinetobacter, Bacillus cereus, Vibrio sp. ja Aeromonas.[3]"

The interesting thing is these bacteria are common (Especially pseudomonas) in our tanks. Bacillus cereus is very common in soil and foods.

 

[HolySmoke]

Opening an 'apology thread' starts to look like a slick way to skirt around your first thread getting locked when you quickly fall back into the same rhetoric. Labeling anyone that doesn't agree with you a looney far right extremist is a good way to get banned yo

What are you talking about? I didn't respond the way I did because he didn't agree with me. I responded the way I did (although not right) because the timing was insensitive and uncalled for. We squashed it and I started this thread to apologize and move on and have an intelligent conversation like adults. If you are trying to start drama that has been squashed move on yo

 

[Mellotang]

I Also Apologize that my timing of comments was in poor taste

I know how much I love my family and I probably react the same way if i Was stressed and worried about everyone