Palytoxin Thread Apology.

[HolySmoke]

Rhabdomyolysis (causes elevated CPK) - and is seen with significant palytoxin poisoning and can be fatal (its basically muscle damage/breakdown - which can cause dangerous elevations in potassium, and damage the kidneys). Unless you ran a marathon - before you messed with your tank (or took cocaine lol) - it would be unlikely that and elevated CPK would be caused by anything else (when you also consider the other symptoms)

Brilliant that is what I thought
Are you a Dr? Negative on the cocaine

 

[HolySmoke]

HolySmoke, I read over your original post (while looking for safety tips) and I'm glad that you're feeling better. In retrospect, have you had a moment where you figured out what exactly your exposure likely came from? Personally, I'm trying to figure out exactly what measures to take when handling corals. Wearing gloves to protect against any bacteria or toxins entering cuts makes sense to me, I've been doing that all along. Wearing goggles to prevent squirts also makes sense. What I'm having a hard time getting my head around is the aerosol aspect. We've all seen the slime when zoas/palys are taken out of water, but theres a conflict of information between, this is a very volatile substance that will vaporize at room temperature and don't boil or pressure wash your rocks. I guess straight to the point of what I'm trying to figure out from your case, is A) If you were exposed to the aerosol version and B) If so, was it simply just pulling corals out of your tank and putting them into a container that allowed the toxins into the air, or if there was some sort of action that would forcibly aerosolize palytoxins. If simply removing them from the water with no other irritation and transporting them through the air was enough to make you ill, I'll have to spend more time on the mask aspect of inhalation prevention.

This is a really good question and I think I have an answer for it but MnFish can def confirm or deny my theory. When I was done with the transfer my PH was very low. 7.8 My Diurnal swing is typically 8-8.30. I wanted to get the gas exchange going again and I had rocks in my sump so no room for my monster skimmer 220 int elite. So I took the VariosS6 and threw it in the sump with the airline hanging out. The pump was blowing water all over the top of my sump and creating a lot of turbulence big airbubbles and it ran like that all night. I set up the pump at 10 pm maybe woke up at 2 am with terrible cough that would not stop. I mean 2 hours straight my wife was ready to strangle me.

My theory is the chemical warfare was in full force and I was basically just blowing it out of the water surface and into the air. It was hitting the side of my sump and running down the side.
Hindsight I should have thrown some carbon In a bag in the sump but I hate using carbon unless I have to.

 

[HolySmoke]

This is a good discussion and warranted..

Without a definitive test, which is not possible, all is speculation with no proof. More important, there were symptoms after working on a salt water tank.

In summary, there can be bad things in your tank, be careful.. Know to the best of your ability what is in your tank and either avoid danger by excluding some organisms or take appropriate pro-cations.

Wash your hands and anything exposed after working in your tank, don't rub your moth or eyes while working in your tank.. Consider wearing eye protection and gloves.

If you do have a reaction after working with a tank, consider your symptoms and take appropriate actions. If symptoms are mild, don't be anxious.. drink lots of water and take it easy. If symptoms are sever, seek medical attention. Error on the side of caution.

Yea I think the biggest takeaway is washing everytime you work in the tank. The whole day was a nightmare nothing went according to plan. I was rushing bc people came to help and I still had over a hundred gallons in the tank. I still think It was in the air but how it got there will be another mystery.

 

[HolySmoke]

I Also Apologize that my timing of comments was in poor taste

I know how much I love my family and I probably react the same way if i Was stressed and worried about everyone

No seriously I apologize I know you meant no harm and I responded like an a55hat

 

[Ben Pedersen]

Just FYI.. Palytoxin via aerosol / air is actually happens in nature. I remember reading about an italian community of over 1500 people who all got mild palytoxin that way. The whole sea side community got sick. The conditions were just right to aerosolize the toxin.

 

[Mellotang]

That’s craxy^

 

[HolySmoke]

I honestly think putting my skimmer pump in the sump, sitting on top of the rocks, pumping hard across the surface was the catalyst that set the whole reaction off. I created my own perfect storm by trying to off Gas excess co2. Mind you I did this right before bed way after the corals were in in tank.

 

[Mellotang]

Especially if it was sitting on rocks with paly

agitating them
Sucking nasty water right in the intake adding a little O2 then poof... HolySmoke!

 

[Mellotang]

No seriously I apologize I know you meant no harm and I responded like an a55hat

we are all just a bunch of a55hats in NYC, myself included

 

[HolySmoke]

we are all just a bunch of a55hats in NYC, myself included

well good thing I'm in westchester than. I couldn't resit.

 

[HolySmoke]

Especially if it was sitting on rocks with paly

agitating them
Sucking nasty water right in the intake adding a little O2 then poof... HolySmoke!

There werent any palys in the sump but I think the water was chock fool of chemical warfare after that Bounce was ripped. Of course just a guess.

 

[terraincognita]

Interesting read.

I've always wondered if the toxin itself has more of an allergic reaction to some than others like bee poison etc.

Also wondering when they will make something to test this. If we can have H202 Meters detecting PPM in the air we should be able to eventually get something to test for this as well. Probably a million+ dollar venture but possibly worth it if it could be released under $1,000 I'm sure 80% of reefers would want to buy/rent one.

 

[HolySmoke]

BTW for some reason the hospital didn't email me the login info for My Chart. I took some snapshots of my wife's blood panel but it is like 8 pictures and I didn't even make a dent in it. I'm gonna try and get mine later today so I can post it up. I had a lot more irregularities in my blood work than her.

 

[MnFish1]

Interesting read.

I've always wondered if the toxin itself has more of an allergic reaction to some than others like bee poison etc.

Also wondering when they will make something to test this. If we can have H202 Meters detecting PPM in the air we should be able to eventually get something to test for this as well. Probably a million+ dollar venture but possibly worth it if it could be released under $1,000 I'm sure 80% of reefers would want to buy/rent one.

The toxin is not an allergy. It acts on an enzyme on most of our cells. Some people may be allergic to it - but the symptoms are different with an allergy. I doubt that 1 in a thousand reefers would buy/rent one. But thats just my opinion. Just like most reefers don't send samples to @AquaBiomics for vibrio or mycobacteria. Its not that common.

 

[HolySmoke]

The toxin is not an allergy. It acts on an enzyme on most of our cells. Some people may be allergic to it - but the symptoms are different with an allergy. I doubt that 1 in a thousand reefers would buy/rent one. But thats just my opinion. Just like most reefers don't send samples to @AquaBiomics for vibrio or mycobacteria. Its not that common.

That is what I was reading about. How it attacks the cell. I think it attacks a transporter or something but I forgot what it's called. I was reading it in the hospital and the past 24 hours were kind of eventful to day the least.

That was my thoughts exactly I know I wouldn't pay that for a really rare occurrence that can be avoided completely with threads like this and better awareness/safe practices.

 

[nick_md]

I'm very glad that you all are doing alright and sought out help from poison control based on my advice and subsequently visited the ER!! It's clear that this palythoa toxin (and other marine toxins) are not well studied by the medical community and treatment is very individualized depending on symptoms. I'm a third year medical student and found this to be very interesting... something that people should probably take more seriously.

A good conclusion: When in doubt, seek out direct medical care!

 

[MnFish1]

That is what I was reading about. How it attacks the cell. I think it attacks a transporter or something but I forgot what it's called. I was reading it in the hospital and the past 24 hours were kind of eventful to day the least.

That was my thoughts exactly I know I wouldn't pay that for a really rare occurrence that can be avoided completely with threads like this and better awareness/safe practices.

The toxicity of palytoxin is due to its binding to external part of Na+/K+-ATPase (the sodium–potassium pump), where it interacts with the natural binding site of ouabain with very high affinity. ... Once palytoxin is bound to the pump, it flips constantly between open and normal conformations.

 

[HolySmoke]

we are all just a bunch of a55hats in NYC, myself included

well good thing I'm in westchester than.

Jeez tough crowd.

The toxicity of palytoxin is due to its binding to external part of Na+/K+-ATPase (the sodium–potassium pump), where it interacts with the natural binding site of ouabain with very high affinity. ... Once palytoxin is bound to the pump, it flips constantly between open and normal conformations.

Thank you the pump that is what I was referring too. High affinity means that it binds really well without wanting to let go right?

 

[Frogspon]

What are you talking about? I didn't respond the way I did because he didn't agree with me. I responded the way I did (although not right) because the timing was insensitive and uncalled for. We squashed it and I started this thread to apologize and move on and have an intelligent conversation like adults. If you are trying to start drama that has been squashed move on yo

lol ok I wasn't sure if you were trolling at first thanks for clarifying!

 

[terraincognita]

The toxicity of palytoxin is due to its binding to external part of Na+/K+-ATPase (the sodium–potassium pump), where it interacts with the natural binding site of ouabain with very high affinity. ... Once palytoxin is bound to the pump, it flips constantly between open and normal conformations.

Interesting.

I guess then it's a matter of when and how much of the palytoxins are released? I imagine we're all exposed to it at some point in dealing with reefs. Is it more of a quantity thing then? Or are some people's cells more immune to the binding of the toxin to the cell's pump?

What do you mean "the natural binding site" of ouabain?

Excuse me but I had to look up a few terms here. I'm just a layman .

Isn't ouabain itself a different toxin? Are you saying they Palytoxins and Ouabain bind in the same manner?

Edit: reading some more articles on Ouabain I guess it's something present in a lot of mammals (like us) already just in low volumes, and plays an integral part in our cardio system. So if that's right then nevermind I get it now.