Phoenix 14K 250W DE vs 20K 250DE

cwk84 · Jul 19, 2019

I've been running 2 x 14K Phoenix on M80 ballasts for not even a week and the color is just meh. It's a nice crisp white but all my corals look brown. When the bulb starts it goes from yellow to super blue (this is where I'd like it to stay) but once they run at full power they become white. Would 20k bulbs make my corals pop again or is this "brownish" look just a thing with metal halides? I know that many supplement with LEDs to make their tanks pop. I supplement with 2 T5's (actinic, blue) but it doesn't really help because the MHs are so bright and powerful, they overpower the T5s. Any thoughts on this?

A. grandis · Jul 20, 2019

14Ks aren't blue. If you already have the M80, and can get a SE fixture, get a Radium.
Colors under 14K should improve with time and only if you actually have colorful corals. Ushio 14Ks, for example, will give you great colors! That's one of the bulbs Dr. Sanjay Joshi used with best results for color and growth.
If you like the blue fluorescence from LEDs or T5 actinics you will have to enjoy it when you turn them on, as a supplemental lights before and after the halides. That's just reflection from the lights to show their fluorescent pigments.
14Ks will help your corals to produce real colors that 20Ks won't, depending on the corals you have. Radium bulb will give you a bluish white color, and the ballast you've got is perfect for it, but like I've said it's SE... Hamilton is another way to go, but used normally with electronic ballast. I would try get an e ballast and hamilton 20K.

cwk84 · Jul 20, 2019

Ok so you are saying that I don't actually have healthy colorful corals and the 14k bulbs reveal that? I've heard that before. Someone told me that 14ks will make your corals pop over time but it is a slow process. I didn't really believe it back then. I guess I was ignorant. I actually have flashy corals. I have bubblegum digitatas, orange setosa, yellow/green zoas, red zoas, blue hammer, green/purple frog spawn, couple soft corals mostly green, mushrooms rangins from blue to green/yelllow and more. It's not so much that I enjoy that LED look. I just want my corals to look really healthy and colorful under a crisp white tank because I actually like the way my fish look. They look really healthy and punchy under the 14k bulbs. But my corals turn brown. What is the main difference between the Ushio and the Phoenix 14k bulb?

jda · Jul 20, 2019

What were the corals under before?

The bulb cannot show off color that is not there. The 14k Phoenix on m80 produces awesome color and can even illuminate it very well, but it might take some time for them to get there.

IMO, the 14k Phoenix and 20k Radium on m80 look VERY similar. These are the only two bulbs that I use. Here are some really bad photos of my tanks under them, but you can get the idea. I use no T5s or LED as supplements... just the Halides:

My Tanks

Photos I Took of My Tanks

flic.kr

cwk84 · Jul 20, 2019

Most of the pictures show the radium 20k right? It looks super blue and I’ve read before that the Radiums make everything pop. Can you tell me which pictures were taken under the 14k bulbs? How long will it take for the corals to show their true colors?

jda · Jul 20, 2019

Nearly all of those are 14k Phoenix. The super huge squamosa and deresa (with urchin on it) are under 20k Radium. The pair of Blue Squamosas are under the 14k Phoenix too. ...so are the Z and P.

cwk84 · Jul 20, 2019

You’re killing me. Why are yours so blue and the corals so punchy looking? Do they become bluer with time? Should i increase the photoperiod For better coloration? Atm it’s 4 hours from 2-6pm. The T5’s are running from 12-10pm.

jda · Jul 20, 2019

Can I assume you came from LED?

Most reefers run a heavy-blue spectrum that is not good at coloring coral, but they can pop them a bit. This is kinda like old school Glamor Shot days where they would take some f ugly people and make them look good - you never wanted to see a Glamor Shot when your friend was trying to set you up... you just wanted to see a normal school photo. That being said, Glamor Shot could take a beautiful person and make them look like a centerfold. If you are too young to remember Glamor Shots, then my apologies, but I am sure that Snapchat and other online apps have the same BS filters that make stuff look better than it is.

It takes time for the coral to develop real color/pigment once you put them under MH or lots of T5s. It can sometimes leave the coral if you change the lighting.

My guess is that you were illuminating them only and not really developing true pigments.

LED can develop nice pigments too in most coral, but this takes full spectrum lighting and even red, green and yellow (whites). Some of the nicest LED tanks run 100% on all channels and then blue them up a bit for viewing. Many do not do this and many do not know that this works very well... they just think blue-all-the-time.

Dana Riddle has said many times that it takes Red to make blue color come out.

This is general, but I usually don't like to trade for LED acropora since they can take months to color up, but when I do, they just look blah for about 8 weeks and don't reach their full potential for about 3-4 months.

I would not run the T5s when the Halides are on... just a waste to me since the MH should provide all the PAR that you could want. Just save the energy and use them for Dusk/Dawn if you need to. How big of a tank do you have? If super large, then the T5s might be a good idea.

Sorry that this was long, but you should see some changes in a few weeks. Be patient.

jda · Jul 20, 2019

Again, sorry for so many words, but I am sure that you have seen the anti-blue sentiment from lots of reefers who don't want blue photos and just give no credit to people with actinic-only tanks. This is because they have seen how colorful corals can be with high quality lighting without needing the blue to make them pop more.

My general advice is daylight for true color and some blue for illumination. Some MH can do this in one package. You have a great bulb... let it do it's thing.

cwk84 · Jul 20, 2019

I came from T5’s. But my old tank didn’t do that well so the corals didn’t reach their full potential.

Yes I agree that blue/actinic tanks are deceiving. I got into an argument with someone about that subject on RC. I told him (a total LED freak) that everyone can make corals pop under LEDs but when you put them under T5 or even MH lighting they look dull. He attacked me viciously. I guess I hit a nerve.

I have a 75g tank (48 inches long). I cannot turn of the T5’s because they turn on with the fans which I need to cool the fixture. It’s an older hybrid fixture that I got used on RC. It’s a solid fixture. I guess I’ll have to wait for the corals to color up like you said.

Regarding the photoperiod, should I leave it at 4 hours or should I bump it up?

jda · Jul 20, 2019

I run my MH for 9 hours on/off with a light switch.

Which fixture did you get? I have a whole pile of older ones like Giesemann and AquaMedic.

FWIW - I have good water parameters, but I do not consider them great. I keep things near NSW, but stuff can wander from time to time. You need to be stable and have good water parameters - no light can make up for giant swings and bad parameters, but I have never found that you need to be on the money all the time.

cwk84 · Jul 20, 2019

48” Sunlight supply maristar high output. I guess I’ll run two actinics for dusk/dawn from 12-1pm and 9-10pm and the halides from 1-9pm.

jda · Jul 20, 2019

That is a good fixture. 20k Radium are single ended, so they would not work in that fixture anyway. That schedule looks good. The T5s should last a long time at a few hours a day. I am sure that you can rewire the fan to the input the ballasts instead of the T5s. There is usually a BUS in there that makes it easy.

cwk84 · Jul 20, 2019

jda said:
That is a good fixture. 20k Radium are single ended, so they would not work in that fixture anyway. That schedule looks good. The T5s should last a long time at a few hours a day. I am sure that you can rewire the fan to the input the ballasts instead of the T5s. There is usually a BUS in there that makes it easy.

I know I already opened it and changed the T5 ballast. I could have the fan come on with the MHs. It would be easy to rewire. How high above the water line do you hang your fixtures?