Phoenix 14K 250W DE vs 20K 250DE

[Bpb]

Much like the rest of life, you cannot excel at everything, but if you do, then you come out OK.

In life, it might be best to be 100% at being a spouse/parent, hygiene or making money, then it is OK to only be 50% on yard work, keeping your car clean or making your bed. There are things that are more important than others. Reefing is no different. I will take the best possible lighting and middling/competent level of parameters and stability over the perfect stability and parameters and a middling level of lighting. Some are just more important than others. Just like never mowing your yard, I am not saying that you can let parameters or stability go all to hell.

The GBR had acropora in the purple, pink, blue, white, brown, yellow, green and pretty much all colors of corals under 6500k ish( just under the water) lighting. There were more colors with NPS and softies. There was no LED pop, of course, where the corals look like Pandora from Avatar, but the colors are really nice nonetheless. The pinks, purples and yellows probably looked better in the ocean whereas some others would look better with bluer light.

I consider "real" color to be a color that can be rendered and illuminated with nearly any different light source that can be replicated by nearly anybody in the hobby. Blue tort is going to be blue under daylight or all-blue LED and nearly anybody can do this. When you need just one type of light, or if only one person can get the color, then I consider that a trick.

I’m in agreement with you in appreciating the natural beauty of a coral under daylight. It is 100% my preference. But sadly, some people swear by the pandora at night look. I see Facebook sellers laughing at people requesting daylight pictures. I quote one fella “lol, people actually run 14k lighting still???” Many of these new wave sps collectors spend 900 a pop on led panels, to only use 1/3 of the colors they come with. Funny stuff. It’s the new normal.

 

[A. grandis]

Find some Acros, Montis and Nems in the tank above!
LOL!! Pandora from Avatar. That's a good one. Thanks jda!!

Problem is that unfortunately the new generation has been thought that way and most likely it's not going to change. That being said we need to face it as "the way they like it". There is no beneficial side to it and only the "Pandora mood" will explain. LOL!
I seriously feel very sorry to see the hobby going that way. Sellers saying things like our friend Bpb posted only show what they are teaching the kids. It's like a snow ball.

 

[jda]

This is Reefman Ron's comparison - I saw him use the reference to Pandora first... I cannot claim it... all credit to him.

People tend to come to more 14k lighting as they figure how to actually color corals. They don't need the "crutch" of all-blue once they get good at reefing.

 

[A. grandis]

Ok, ok, All credits to Reefman! Thanks Reefman!!!! I adopted the term already!!! LOL!

You guys are very patient in writing all that about the coloring. I think I'm getting too old to explain some stuff. LOL! I just have in the back of my mind and mistakenly assume that all people here would know that or the other part. Some times we tend to jump the thoughts, I guess.
Did you notice the Acros on the top center of that pic? LOL!

 

[cwk84]

I don't even know what to say anymore. You guys are bashing LEDs on the merit that they make corals look "too" colorful. You'd rather be looking and dull brown colors because that's how they look in the wild. This is so stupid I want to run against a wall. You know what's not natural? Keeping corals in a god dang aquarium! If you want pure nature, go scuba diving. This is a visual hobby. If the option is available to us to make a VISUAL hobby VISUALLY more appealing, why would I not do it? The only answer is ignorance. You are ignorant towards newer technology. Even BRS has concluded that the newe LED fixtures that are popping up on the market are on par with MHs. Furthermore, you don't even need so much par to grow SPS. Any SPS will do well between 250-350 par. In many cases, you don't even want to give them too much PAR because too much zooxanthella = brown looking corals. If you dive really deep in the ocean you will find colorful colors. That's because they don't get as much sunlight so they do not develop that much pigment. Bubble tips are literally GLOWING in deep waters. I've done my fair share of research and EMPIRICAL evidence shows that LEDs DELIVER while making the hobby visually more appealing.

This is some of my corals under Orphek blue + and Phoenix 14k. My experience has been faster growth with halides better fluorescence with led. With t5 I notice better fluorescence with blue + vs actinic. Just my observation and nothing scientific.

Where is that "LED pop" in the bottom left corner? I thought metal halides color up corals like nothing else and LEDs make anything pop anyway, so where is that pop? Hmmm maybe but only maybe the lighting source is not that important of a factor when it comes to coloration as long as the spectrum is balanced which can be achieved with a balanced LED profile? Maybe you guys should listen to Dana. She was quoted here.

I consider "real" color to be a color that can be rendered and illuminated with nearly any different light source that can be replicated by nearly anybody in the hobby. Blue tort is going to be blue under daylight or all-blue LED and nearly anybody can do this. When you need just one type of light, or if only one person can get the color, then I consider that a trick.

What you consider doesn't matter. There is no real color, period. End of discussion. Corals express colors differently depending on many different parameters, not just light.

If a moderator could close and/or delete this thread I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[cwk84]

I’m in agreement with you in appreciating the natural beauty of a coral under daylight. It is 100% my preference. But sadly, some people swear by the pandora at night look. I see Facebook sellers laughing at people requesting daylight pictures. I quote one fella “lol, people actually run 14k lighting still???” Many of these new wave sps collectors spend 900 a pop on led panels, to only use 1/3 of the colors they come with. Funny stuff. It’s the new normal.

A healthy balanced 10-14k profile on Radions looks far from "pandora night" look. Your circular arguments are ridiculous. No one wants a blue tank. Not a single LED user I have encountered only runs 1/3 of the spectrum available. You're making stuff up so you have a reason to claim that your viewpoint is reasonable.
These strawmans are getting old and so do all the "pandora night look" arguments. You can have LEDs and run a balanced 10K profile and it will look 1000x better than any metal halide and cost a fraction of the lifetime cost of replacing bulbs. WWC for instance, run a very balanced profile for viewing and pop. It does not look unnatural at all. I do not see FB sellers laughing at daylight pictures. That's merely your impression based on a few instances that you are now presenting as fact.

 

[Bpb]

A healthy balanced 10-14k profile on Radions looks far from "pandora night" look. Your circular arguments are ridiculous. No one wants a blue tank. Not a single LED user I have encountered only runs 1/3 of the spectrum available. You're making stuff up so you have a reason to claim that your viewpoint is reasonable.
These strawmans are getting old and so do all the "pandora night look" arguments. You can have LEDs and run a balanced 10K profile and it will look 1000x better than any metal halide and cost a fraction of the lifetime cost of replacing bulbs. WWC for instance, run a very balanced profile for viewing and pop. It does not look unnatural at all. I do not see FB sellers laughing at daylight pictures. That's merely your impression based on a few instances that you are now presenting as fact.

We can all agree a “14k” setting will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. I agree, the 14k setting on the radions is a pleasing look. The accelerated growth is even better to my eyes with all channels at 100%. I’m not saying your taste in color is wrong. Just that I simply disagree with it. I’ve not been to WWC in person to witness their tanks so I cannot comment on that. Use what you want I don’t care. I don’t care what your tank looks like. Or JDA’s, or Grandis, or even Oreos planted tank. Do what you want. Use whatever bulbs you want. I’m not convincing anyone of anything.

My comments about using 1/3 of the diodes on a panel are in reference to what I see many locals doing. I’m not making anything up. I make no claim that 100% of radion users on planet earth do it. I don’t deal in absolutes. You must be mixing me up with others in this thread, as seems to be happening frequently. It has simply been enough to take notice of and mention of the blue craze. If you haven’t experienced it, well that’s fine. But a more appropriate retort would have been “that has not been my observation” rather than “no one I’ve seen running leds do it so you’re making it up”. Stay reasonable and pay closer to attention to who you’re replying to and what they’re saying. Don’t make inferences. Assumptions as such are what cause these threads to become so volatile.

I will have to flat out disagree on the lifetime cost of radions versus the lifetime cost of bulb replacement. Other variables aside, it would take 16 years to break even on a $50 bulb replaced annually versus an $800 radion pro. That is simple arithmetic. Change that argument to a $120 black box, and yeah, you’ll break even quicker. I don’t trust the tech, don’t like the spread, and don’t care much for the rendering ability of most black boxes I’ve seen (and personally used). In that instance I’ll happily pay more for a more pleasing hobby experience.

Furthermore. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve literally only made recommendations on this thread and many other recent ones based on the questions. Because I know how tiresome it can be when you ask a question regarding specific products and your question is ignored and other brands are brought up.

I haven’t once said “don’t waste your time with leds, they’re inferior, mh is king” because that has never been my belief or sentiment.

My belief has always been use whatever TF you want. I presently use metal halide/led combo because it is the most economical choice. I get the most light, quality of materials, reliability, track record, and ease of use, at the lowest price. That to me means the best value. Period.

I’m the last person on earth that will cling to tradition for tradition sake, or on the flip side blow additional money just to keep up with the joneses on the latest whatever

Heck, I seem to be the one recommending you GET RID of your halides based on what you’ve expressed your visual preferences to be. I still maintain a t5 led combo would get you closer to where you want to go, as I believe that to be the best light source for displaying both reflective and fluorescent pigments simultaneously. A radion pro on ab+, along with 2 ati blue+, an ati purple+ and a true actinic is a beautiful setup to photograph under if you’re trying to show off your corals of any kind.

You and others seem content to be getting snarky, sarcastic, and juvenile, all the while begging for the thread to get shut down. That is a shame. Because it’s an entertaining read. I rather enjoy when Tapatalk tells me this thread has an update. I still wish people would share more of their tanks without ridicule as well. I appreciate the shares because they are valuable to the questions at hand. Theyre valuable to display ideas and results, and they’re valuable to a lesser extent to back up claims (though that is a flawed statement). I could set up a new tank and put frags in with less than stellar color and it wouldn’t negate my experience. I digress.


I’ll put myself out there. Feel free to flame and bash away at my brown corals and boring tank
Lighting is Hamilton 14k no supplements, iPhone video. No filter or post processing. Some corals I’m happy with, others are genetically just not real exciting. I have leds on this tank also that I run in the morning and evening. So I know what in my tank pops and what doesn’t. I can tell you the specific pieces that look better and worse under either lighting tech. I don’t expect you’d be interested in knowing. That would be far too reasonable and middle of the road for most on this thread

 

[jda]

What you consider doesn't matter. There is no real color, period. End of discussion. Corals express colors differently depending on many different parameters, not just light.

If it does not matter, then why the drooling over the colors in the first few pages. I can, and have, explained how to duplicate this color in a way that is repeatable and obtainable. This is true color. You need no photoshop, special lights or tricks to make this happen. I have a feeling that once you get more breath and depth of experience that you will see this too... happens to nearly all smart folks who are in this for long enough and care enough to pay attention.

If you get into this for long enough, you will realize that the "parameters matter too" only really works when parameters are totally out of whack, or when people don't know better. Even a competent level of middling parameters can have really great looking corals if the lights are good enough. Stability matters too, but again, competent level is good enough in most cases. A middling level of lighting really will not. The three things are not even on the same level. Of course, none of these are mutually exclusive, so go ahead and be good at all three, just don't expect the most perfect parameters to yield much better results than some in the 60th percentile. A top-tier light can do significantly more than one in the 60th percentile.

 

[DogsRule]

OP stated he was done with this thread (a few days ago) & yes posted again, but then asked for thread to be closed/deleted, so why keep "flogging a dead horse" as the saying goes? Respect OPs wishes/ choices/ decisions & move on.

 

[shred5]

I don't even know what to say anymore. You guys are bashing LEDs on the merit that they make corals look "too" colorful. You'd rather be looking and dull brown colors because that's how they look in the wild. This is so stupid I want to run against a wall. You know what's not natural? Keeping corals in a god dang aquarium! If you want pure nature, go scuba diving. This is a visual hobby. If the option is available to us to make a VISUAL hobby VISUALLY more appealing, why would I not do it? The only answer is ignorance. You are ignorant towards newer technology. Even BRS has concluded that the newe LED fixtures that are popping up on the market are on par with MHs. Furthermore, you don't even need so much par to grow SPS. Any SPS will do well between 250-350 par. In many cases, you don't even want to give them too much PAR because too much zooxanthella = brown looking corals. If you dive really deep in the ocean you will find colorful colors. That's because they don't get as much sunlight so they do not develop that much pigment. Bubble tips are literally GLOWING in deep waters. I've done my fair share of research and EMPIRICAL evidence shows that LEDs DELIVER while making the hobby visually more appealing.




Where is that "LED pop" in the bottom left corner? I thought metal halides color up corals like nothing else and LEDs make anything pop anyway, so where is that pop? Hmmm maybe but only maybe the lighting source is not that important of a factor when it comes to coloration as long as the spectrum is balanced which can be achieved with a balanced LED profile? Maybe you guys should listen to Dana. She was quoted here.



What you consider doesn't matter. There is no real color, period. End of discussion. Corals express colors differently depending on many different parameters, not just light.

If a moderator could close and/or delete this thread I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

Again I work in the lighting industry and their certainly is a thing as true color.
That is why we have indexes like CRI..
Been a long time since I had a basic lighting coarse..
If you take a piece of pure white paper and it appears white.. Now I shine a red light on it that piece of paper will appear red.. Red not really the color.. Same thing when I light the outside the outside of a beautiful building I want to show off the colors but I do not want to change those colors. Now it is Christmas time and they want to put red or green filters on those lights, when those filters are on it is hard to make out the actual color of the building..


There certainly is a fad right now to running mostly blue.. Matter of fact someone just told me I think it was reefapalooza NY they were selling orange glasses so you could at least make out the colors of the coral and offset the blue some.. That has gone to far. Someone used it as a example is the aquariums look like a lazer tag arena.. If you ever seen them you would know what he was taling about. I saw one for the first time on a cruise last year. They have all these walls painted with day glow colors and black light above. You probably to young to remember when black lights were popular and black light posters. But that is what these tanks are looking like.. It is not all led users it is some of them but it is growing.. But that is what allot of vendors are doing right now and pushing. They light the corals with almost all blue and then they put these orange or yellow filters on their camera and take pictures. It makes the corals way more colorful than they actually are. They are not actually using the colors of the corals they are just using the fluorescence of the coral..

Here is a example.. I went to a lfs these was a long time ago.. They had a chalice there for years, I had seen it a hundred times. I went there one day and they had it under a new led light and this coral glowed a insane orange. I didn't recognize it and bought a chunk and got it home and put it in my t-5 aquarium and it was brown.. What is the actual color of the coral.. It is these fluorescent day colors people are trying to do just do not look right. You would never see a coral glowing like that in the ocean..


You are right too, corals can change colors overtime not doubt but that is not what people are talking about. People are talking about closer to what the coral would be under normal light.

Corals can certainly change colors like you said over time based on different lights and aquarium conditions..

You are right not all led users are running a ton of blue but the fad is growing.. Some choose leds because of control and energy efficiency and do run more white light. There are and have been allot of fads in the hobby and they are usually by those people who are not in the hobby long or for the right reasons. They jump from light to light or from salt to salt which ever is the hot thing right now.. Most of the people that use halides have been the hobby a longer time. Most are the same people that use salt like Instant ocean. Why because it is a salt that has been around, proven and stable. How do you trust a coral that you had for 10 or more years to a company that just started making salt?. Fad stuff disappears all the time and we have lived through it. Not that we are afraid of change or new things. I for one test new reef equipment out for companies all the time.

One thing about people that use metal halides in this hobby is usually they are more passionate about lighting and understanding it.. I am not saying there are not people who use led that dont, just that it seems to be a higher percentage of halide users are very knowledgeable about lighting.. Most can debate lighting with me or know more and I have been in the lighting industry 30+ years now.. I deal with lighting manufactures every day.

Remember to I do not even have halides right now and have not used them in a while..I have around 10 aquariums right now and probably going to add 10 more and some are led.

By the way I do not know what thread it was in but the person who said cannibus grow facilities are using only led now a days is wrong.. We just did a large one and they wanted HPS and that should tell you something.. So anyone thinking halides will be gone if a few years should think again.

Also you need to calm down, People use the forums to debate stuff and some people are more passionate, no one attacked you or your intelligence, no one got up on twitter and called you out . It is all good..

 

[oreo54]

One thing about people that use metal halides in this hobby is usually they are more passionate about lighting and understanding it..

Actually it's sort of quite the opposite..
There are like 4 "groups" and one is unpopular..
Blue,14000k,10000K,6500k

Plug and play really doesn't define passion..
How many times does one hear..

"Metal Halides.. they just work"
About the only time they get "passionate" is to explain what LED doesn't have..

HPS beats MH's hands down......... always has

 

[Bpb]

Actually it's sort of quite the opposite..
There are like 4 "groups" and one is unpopular..
Blue,14000k,10000K,6500k

Plug and play really doesn't define passion..
How many times does one hear..

"Metal Halides.. they just work"
About the only time they get "passionate" is to explain what LED doesn't have..

HPS beats MH's hands down......... always has

For flowering, yes they’re as good as it gets. Vegetative growth does well under 6500k MH

 

[oreo54]

Also cost and lumen differences.

Grow Light Operating Cost - Greentrees Hydroponics

Some facts about HID lighting operating costs and lamp replacement.

www.hydroponics.net

GENERAL HPS vs MH

http://www.darkskysociety.org/handouts/white_paper--mh_vs_hps.pdf

Along with research showing that MH lighting systems use 150%-170% of the energy, resources, equipment and (a substantially higher ratio of) maintenance costs compared to HPS, we also find that “uplight” from MH scatters in the atmosphere about twice as much as from HPS - for the same number of lumens. The same phenomenon (Raleigh scatter) that makes the sky blue and sunsets/sunrises colored makes MH contribute twice as much to skyglow under clear sky conditions as HPS. This is not some esoteric concept but a long understood phenomenon (since 1871) that also doesn't get discussed during design discussions.

MH

lights are generally used in the vegetative stage of growth (when plants are young and growing just stems and leaves), while HPS lights are considered optimal for use during the flowering stage when cannabis plants are producing buds. HPS lights can be used for the entire grow and will still get great results.Dec 21, 2018

Goodbye from Maximum Yield

In print and online, Maximum Yield is your source for cannabis and cultivation knowledge, with informative grow articles and tips to enhance your life with mmj.

www.maximumyield.com

High Pressure Sodium

– HPS lighting is generally associated with the fruiting or flowering stages due to its higher output of red-spectrum light. However, many growers successfully use HPS lighting for vegetative growth as well.
HPS is the most efficient form of HID lighting and some growers will argue HPS is a superior vegetative light because of its efficacy. HPS bulbs need replacement less often than their MH counterparts and produce more light output per watt or energy consumed.
Advancements in HID lighting technologies—more specifically, the design and construction of the lamps themselves—have created HPS bulbs with more full-spectrum outputs.

but we BOTH digress..

 

[Chessmanmark]

I started with Hamilton 10k bulbs and hated them, although that original fixture had a pair of VHOs which gave off great color.
Then I used Phoenix 14k for a few years in
because you can get them at a good price. This is a good bulb. I ditched the Hamilton fixture and bought two LumenBright pendants which are good reflectors.
I’ve also tried Reeflux (12k I think) which were decent.
My favorite were the XM 20k.
I was about to order some Phoenix bulbs but see the Ushio are cheap right now.
How do you like them so far?

 

[EMeyer]

If a moderator could close and/or delete this thread I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

If I asked mods to close every thread where I encountered opinions that were different than my own, there wouldnt be many threads left and this would be a pretty boring place. Why delete such an interesting discussion?

 

[DesertReefT4r]

I have personally used both 14k Phoenix and 20K Coralife and Odyssea bulbs on a few different tanks over the years. I like both and both work very well. I do like the slightly bluer look of the 20k though. Colors up corals a little better and I just like that deeper reef blue look. I dont like the all blue LED alll the time look. I habe found that the Phoenix bulbs are more crisp white with magnetic type ballasts and more white blue on electronic ballasts.

 

[Backreefing]

Actually it's sort of quite the opposite..
There are like 4 "groups" and one is unpopular..
Blue,14000k,10000K,6500k

Plug and play really doesn't define passion..
How many times does one hear..

"Metal Halides.. they just work"
About the only time they get "passionate" is to explain what LED doesn't have..

HPS beats MH's hands down......... always has

I’ve been reading up on different types of lighting. The reason metal halide in so much more popular in aquariums is out of all the types of lights lined up , metal halide have a much more reliable spectrum than high pressure sodium . I read that from a lamp manufacturer. I’ve been all over the net on MH and bulbs ect. So I can’t remember which manufacturer wrote this. Sorry. And I’m in the blue is best group. Personal experience.

 

[warlocktitan]

Alright, guys, I ordered 2 Ushio 20K 250W DE bulbs. I found them for 56 dollars a bulb. From what I could see on pictures, it comes close to that deep water slight purple tint look I like. And they are dimmer which means I can lower the fixture (less light spill in the room) and I won't need to mess around with LEDs and stuff to make corals pop. Yes, it might not color my corals up as nicely as 14K bulbs, but the perceived "pop" will make up for it. After all, it's still a metal halide bulb which puts out more PAR/PUR than most lighting setups. So I will still see good growth and color regardless.

If anyone wants my 14k bulbs, I'll ship them for 30 a bulb. I've been using them for 4 hours since Saturday 14th. That's 34 hours.

Alright, guys, I ordered 2 Ushio 20K 250W DE bulbs. I found them for 56 dollars a bulb. From what I could see on pictures, it comes close to that deep water slight purple tint look I like. And they are dimmer which means I can lower the fixture (less light spill in the room) and I won't need to mess around with LEDs and stuff to make corals pop. Yes, it might not color my corals up as nicely as 14K bulbs, but the perceived "pop" will make up for it. After all, it's still a metal halide bulb which puts out more PAR/PUR than most lighting setups. So I will still see good growth and color regardless.

If anyone wants my 14k bulbs, I'll ship them for 30 a bulb. I've been using them for 4 hours since Saturday 14th. That's 34 hours.

if you still have 14k bulbs for sale please let me know, thx

 

[topjimmy]

@jda what DE 250 do you like? I have been using Hamilton 20k on their eballast. Price is good, color is decent. Might like a bulb with more punch though.

 

[Sea MunnKey]

this is a pretty interesting read ... try not to turn this into a RC forum bashing & throwing insults. There will always be critics no matter what or where we are ... Kinda like saying acropora vs lps is king of the saltwater hobby. Different minds, different opinions.

Peace