Phosphate issues 5 + years

[joeyt66]

Ok thanks for reading , this is going to be a long post.
So ive been in saltwater for about 20 yrs, over those years I have bought and sold live rock from my tank. I had a fowlr for number of years. Yes I was an over feeder and overstocked tank. The tank started out as a 125g and was upgraded to a 220 at which time I bought more live rock( about ten years ago) I never really worried about phosphate until about 5 yrs ago. I was keeping coralsbut mostly softies and anenomes . But I could never keep torches frogspawn, xzenia, acans etc,(the list goes on). I started to do some testing and found my po4 was off the chart. api test kits were reading as high as the 10. ppm that right 10. not .10, so I started using gfo and doing weekly water changes. Spent a small fortune on gfo. Only to have it go down and then right back up. My equipment was always underated for what I kept till about 5 yrs ago. so for the last 5 yrs ive been running gfo which ive givin up on as it doesn't last long. I was dosing vinegar for a while, and recently (past year ) phos rx . My phos is at 2.o as I type this. I can use the phos rx and get it down to .10-.20 but only for it to climb back up within a week or two.
I don't think im over stocked my tank is 220g plus 75g sump plus 30 frag tank, few corals couple nens. Fish are sailfin tang hippo tang,yellow tang, purple, tang, kole , tang 2 watchmen goby and 3 clowns. I have only been feeding them nls pellets and nori3-4 times a week. Not over feeding amounts. This has been a couple years at this rate.
So I know the obvious answer is leeching from the live rock, But how long and how much can possibly be stored in the rock. (guessing 200-250 lbs worth ) I really don't want to dismantle my tank and live rock if im not 100% sure. Is there any ways to determine it is the rock.
Also could this much reside in my substrate (about one inch thick in the 220g)

Also something to consider was about ten years ago in the fowlr (same rock today) I had a bad case of ich i battled for a while . I ended up treating with cuparmine (seachem) in the display tank ( I know bad idea) I used the product they recommended to meto take out of tank (think it was cupri sorb ) it took about 9 months to get the copper undetectable. I still see no traces of copper leeching out but wonder if that could have something to do with all the phosphate.

Im to the point I am thinking of replacing all the rock and substrate , but I don't want to do it if it isn't needed. Is there a way to tell for sure?

 

[joeyt66]

also im testing now with a hanna checker. and am using a swc skimmer rated for 750.

 

[saltyhog]

I would imagine that rock that is that old and had been in a FOWLR would have a tremendous amount of PO4 in it. I think your results reinforce that theory. Eventually it will all leach out but who knows how long and how much GFO or lanthium it will take to achieve that.

For that reason (and the lingering fear of copper still being there even though it's undetectable on a hobby grade kit), if it were me and I was wanting to have a reef instead of a FOWLR I would reboot with new rock/substrate. Let's see what some of the real experts think #reefsquad

 

[Flippers4pups]

There is a correlation between N03 and P04. Whats your N03 at?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Po4 shouldn’t raise that fast unless you are putting it in that fast.
And that seems like a lot to be be putting in with just regular or kinda heavy feeding.

Once a rock leeches out the Po4 , it’s gone. It reaches equilibrium with the water , that’s how we test it. It shouldn’t just keep coming out. As I understand it.

 

[joeyt66]

There is a correlation between N03 and P04. Whats your N03 at?

Nitrates are usually not to high 20-40 ppm. I’m testing as we speak

 

[joeyt66]

Hope you can read these
These are results from marinlab testing
I had tested in January

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

I had same issue for a man made dry rock for a while.
I
Gfo was too expensive to strip water so I decided to dose very diluted amount of Lanthanum chloride.
I started with 20 ml per day and over 2 years my rocks finally leeched out all the phos they had in them and now I am dosing only 1 drop every 2 weeks and that keeps my phos absolute 0-0.01.
Like someone mentioned you got to have nitrates to drop phos. There is a relationship.
If your nitrates are 0 phos will stay where they are. Good thing is your nitrates are over 20 ppm so you have room to play.

I made a reactor for my LC dosing but you can simply drip the solution in a 10 micron sock for a while and see how that helps you.
Good luck

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Copper and lithium.

The copper will kill the bacteria.

 

[joeyt66]

Copper and lithium.

The copper will kill the bacteria.

I dosed thecopper 10 yrs ago. There’s been no trace on my home test kit for 9 yrs.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I dosed thecopper 10 yrs ago. There’s been no trace on my home test kit for 9 yrs.

Understood.

Like phosphate, it binds to aragonite.

 

[Dan_P]

I have read many success stories about lanthanum chloride. The method of application requires attention to detail but seems straightforward and cost appears much lower than GFO. If the rocks and substrate are saturated, it might take more than one application. You should be able to figure the cost and the headache level of replacing sand and rock vs several lanthanum chloride applications.

Dan

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

This is worth a shot.

https://www.seachem.com/cuprisorb.php

 

[joeyt66]

I have read many success stories about lanthanum chloride. The method of application requires attention to detail but seems straightforward and cost appears much lower than GFO. If the rocks and substrate are saturated, it might take more than one application. You should be able to figure the cost and the headache level of replacing sand and rock vs several lanthanum chloride applications.

Dan

I used phosrx which is a concentrated form of lc

 

[joeyt66]

This is worth a shot.

https://www.seachem.com/cuprisorb.php

That’s what I used 10 years ago to take out the cuprimine copper
I have not seen copper since. I just thought I’d let you guys know the history I have on the live rock.

 

[joeyt66]

Appreciating the feed back

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

That’s what I used 10 years ago to take out the cuprimine copper
I have not seen copper since. I just thought I’d let you guys know the history I have on the live rock.

No worries.

Could be a cheap fix though.

I’d also look at a kinda probiotic approach too. Bottled bacteria with water changes or weekly. Maybe a scad of nopox. ;organic carbon).
Boost the bio filter and try to pull the one heavy metals the ICP found.

Did this test also do your rodi?

 

[joeyt66]

No worries.

Could be a cheap fix though.

I’d also look at a kinda probiotic approach too. Bottled bacteria with water changes or weekly. Maybe a scad of nopox. ;organic carbon).
Boost the bio filter and try to pull the one heavy metals the ICP found.

Did this test also do your rodi?

No they tested tank water only

 

[KrisReef]

Your January test results "tell for sure" that you have two elevated "pollutants," Al (Aluminum) and Cu (Copper).

Those levels are more of a concern than the elevated nutrient phosphate if you are planning on keeping corals.

I think I would sell that rock to someone who wants to only keep fish, and get new rock that doesn't have elevated phosphate, aluminum and copper. Given how much you have tried to address copper and phosphate in the past, it would likely be faster and easier to start with new rock than try to treat the historic rock you have.

 

[joeyt66]

Your January test results "tell for sure" that you have two elevated "pollutants," Al (Aluminum) and Cu (Copper).

Those levels are more of a concern than the elevated nutrient phosphate if you are planning on keeping corals.

I think I would sell that rock to someone who wants to only keep fish, and get new rock that doesn't have elevated phosphate, aluminum and copper. Given how much you have tried to address copper and phosphate in the past, it would likely be faster and easier to start with new rock than try to treat the historic rock you have.

The aluminum I was told is a result from using phosguard
Not sure about the copper. But possibly leaching from the rock