PO4 just won’t go down. Source unknown. Need help!

[glb]

Hi everyone. I have a 40g breeder with very high po4. Long story short, I used to have to dose po4 as it zeroed out. An accidental overdose started the problem (a few months ago). Needless to say, I had all sorts of algae problems. The highest the po4 has gotten is .44. It was down to .25. Last week I decided to turn off the lights for a few days to kill off the algae. This worked, but the po4 spiked again. Can algae die off increase nitrates and phosphates? I have been doing 5g water changes for the past three weeks with no decrease in po4. I have gfo in the sump. I am not overfeeding. Most of the fish food is mysis shrimp which I rinse off before I add it to the tank. I haven’t lost any livestock that I know of. My filtration is an SCA-301 skimmer, carbon, gfo and live rock (originally dry). The tank is looking much better than it did a month ago, but the po4 just isn’t going down. I don’t know where it’s coming from. I did a full sump clean a few weeks ago so there’s not a lot of detritus in the sump. I did start using dr. Tim’s waste away because there was a lot of sludge on the rocks. The rocks look much much better, but still have the high po4. I’m not a newbie but I’ve never had this problem before. My tank parameters today were: Alk-9.5, NO3-10ppm, pH-7.88, Sal-35, PO4-.41ppm, temp-77.8. I only have six fish.

My hypothesis is that the po4 overdose was absorbed by the rock and it is now leaching out of the rock. Also, I’m thinking the algae die off from turning off the lights caused an additional increase.

Here are my ideas for fixing things. I’m thinking some 20% water changes relatively close together to bring the numbers down. I’ve already shortened the lights to 4 hours/day. I only have some zoas and rock anemones so they’re fine. Once the numbers are a little lower, I have some options. I could add an algae turf scrubber or a refugium. I could use Nopox to keep things under control (I used nopox in the past for nutrient control and I think this is what caused my po4 to zero out in the first place, but the tank is more mature now [2+ years]). I’m hesitant with the nopox, but it does work. I could get a gfo reactor instead of just throwing a bag in the sump.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! I’ve been in the hobby for 10 years and this is a first for me. I know I need to find the source of the problem and not just treat the symptoms. Thanks in advance for your help!!!

 

[CuzzA]

GFO needs to be tumbled in a reactor. If you're throwing a bag of it in the sump it's just a waste. GFO in a reactor is extremely effective. I use it continuously and adjust the amount based on my PO4 levels. If I bottom out on phosphate I feed corals more Reef Roids which will raise po4.

 

[glb]

GFO needs to be tumbled in a reactor. If you're throwing a bag of it in the sump it's just a waste. GFO in a reactor is extremely effective. I use it continuously and adjust the amount based on my PO4 levels. If I bottom out on phosphate I feed corals more Reef Roids which will raise po4.

Thanks. I used to have a gfo reactor, but the po4 was so low for so long that I pulled it out and turned it into a co2 scrubber. Maybe I should get a new one. But will it help with numbers this high?

 

[CuzzA]

Thanks. I used to have a gfo reactor, but the po4 was so low for so long that I pulled it out and turned it into a co2 scrubber. Maybe I should get a new one. But will it help with numbers this high?

I thinks so. Coupled with water changes it should drop pretty quick. Manually pulling algae out will also reduces po4 from being re-disolved as the algae dies.

 

[glb]

I thinks so. Coupled with water changes it should drop pretty quick. Manually pulling algae out will also reduces po4 from being re-disolved as the algae dies.

Thanks. I pull out the bubble algae manually. I clean the algae off the glass. I think I’ll get a reactor to keep things under control. I want it to be an LPS tank so I don’t want zero no3 or po4. I appreciate your help!!

 

[glb]

#reefsquad, any thoughts on where the po4 might be coming from?

 

[JCOLE]

Have you tried adding nitrifying bacteria like Microbacter7? If not, then I would pick up a bottle along with dosing a carbon source. You could dose vodka or pick up their Reef BioFuel which is recommended when dosing their bacteria. This is what I use. It helps boost and establish your bacteria population which will help with lowering nutrients and also establish a natural bio filter.

 

[CuzzA]

Have you tried adding nitrifying bacteria like Microbacter7? If not, then I would pick up a bottle along with dosing a carbon source. You could dose vodka or pick up their Reef Fuel which is recommended when dosing their bacteria. This is what I use. It helps boost and establish your bacteria population which will help with lowering nutrients and also establish a natural bio filter.

Carbon dosing for nitrifying bacteria has little effect on phosphate.

 

[dwest]

What test kit are you using? Some of the variations you see could be from the kit. But in general, I agree with what you said. You overdosed phosphates and now your system is slowly releasing it back into the water. If I had your tank, I would measure phosphate, and as long as there are no problems with my corals, I would let it naturally fall to its equilibrium value. I would remove algae weekly and let it ride. That’s gonna take a while, but as long as corals are OK, I wouldn’t worry. I have used (overused actually) gfo in the past. If I were to use it again, I would go very slow and only use a fraction of what is recommended. Good luck.

 

[CuzzA]

#reefsquad, any thoughts on where the po4 might be coming from?

Your original presumption is correct. Dying algae is going to increase po4 and possibly nitrates. This is why so many people experience cyano outbreaks after using Vibrant to kill algae. The nutrients are released back into the water. Manually removing as much algae as possible is true, instant exportation. Letting algae die and then waiting for other forms of nutrient export is going to take time.

An accidental overdose started the problem (a few months ago). Needless to say, I had all sorts of algae problems. The highest the po4 has gotten is .44. It was down to .25. Last week I decided to turn off the lights for a few days to kill off the algae. This worked, but the po4 spiked again. Can algae die off increase nitrates and phosphates?

To answer your question. Yes.

 

[DeniableArc]

I used phosguard by seachem in a bag in a high flow area in my sump (I believe they say not to tumble)
And it took my p04 from .1to 0 in a few days and gave me cyano. But I did use quite a bit.

 

[sfin52]

The rocks absorbed the po4 and now releasing it. When the algae died it also released it into the tank. Couple that when a little over feading.

What type of water are you using

 

[JCOLE]

Carbon dosing for nitrifying bacteria has little effect on phosphate.

I might have been wrong by stating it as "Nitrifying" bacteria. However, I have been using it for two weeks and I can see a substantial difference. Carbon dosing it self doesnt really do anything directly to phosphates. It is just a fuel source for the bacteria. Couldn't hurt to try and see.

If this isn't correct then they need to change their claims. This is from Microbacter7 website.

• Complex system of non-pathogenic aerobic and anaerobic microbes, as well as natural enzymes, specifically formulated to establish biological filtration in new aquarium set-ups, and to enhance the rate of nitrification, denitrification, and organic waste degradation in marine and freshwater aquaria through complete nutrient remineralization.
• Reduces nitrates and phosphates
• Used the world over for more than 12 years
• Veterinarian Pathologist tested and recommended
• Supplied in a state of suspended animation for maximum longevity, 2 yr. shelf life from date of manufacture
• Formulated utilizing extensive data compiled by microbiologists.

Benefits
1. Rapid reduction of organic carbon, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and phosphate.
2. Digestion of uneaten/undigested food, excreta, detritus, and other latent organic material, resulting in cleaner and healthier aquarium substrate
3. Reduction of organic compounds into nutrients that encourage the growth of photosynthetic organisms
4. Greatly-reduced hydrogen sulfide production.
5. Increase in dissolved oxygen concentration.
6. Limits availability of pre-existing phosphate to undesirable forms of algae and cyanobacteria.
7. Increased water clarity.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I have tried to worn people about dosing phosphates in many threads with no luck. The rocks just going to soak up anything put into the tank. People keep feeling the need to dose it, and keep going for some reason, nothing in a normal tank will eat phosphates at such a rate where it needs to be dosed daily. Phosphates should not need to be dosed in a tank that is not using gfo or a carbon source. The tank should balance itself out and even if it’s reading 0 on test kits it’s not.

Nitrate and phosphate dosing is best used when carbon dosing to balance out one or the other opposite parameter if the other is zero. I wonder how much corals actually use the stuff we dose for nitrate and phosphate.

 

[teller]

I have tried to worn people about dosing phosphates in many threads with no luck. The rocks just going to soak up anything put into the tank. People keep feeling the need to dose it, and keep going for some reason, nothing in a normal tank will eat phosphates at such a rate where it needs to be dosed daily. Phosphates should not need to be dosed in a tank that is not using gfo or a carbon source. The tank should balance itself out and even if it’s reading 0 on test kits it’s not.

Nitrate and phosphate dosing is best used when carbon dosing to balance out one or the other opposite parameter if the other is zero. I wonder how much corals actually use the stuff we dose for nitrate and phosphate.

Best post.
Like dosing nitrates and not caring about phosphates.
People do not understand they are creating dangerous unbalances.
Feed more. Put nori algae constantly even if only your CUC eat it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

#reefsquad, any thoughts on where the po4 might be coming from?

no question, the overdose put a mammoth amount (mist of what was added) onto the rock and it will take a lot to pull it all off.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have tried to worn people about dosing phosphates in many threads with no luck. The rocks just going to soak up anything put into the tank. People keep feeling the need to dose it, and keep going for some reason, nothing in a normal tank will eat phosphates at such a rate where it needs to be dosed daily. Phosphates should not need to be dosed in a tank that is not using gfo or a carbon source. The tank should balance itself out and even if it’s reading 0 on test kits it’s not.

Nitrate and phosphate dosing is best used when carbon dosing to balance out one or the other opposite parameter if the other is zero. I wonder how much corals actually use the stuff we dose for nitrate and phosphate.

I don’t agree at all. If you want to raise phosphate and not nitrate, firing is the best way to accomplish that. In fact, I know if not her way.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Best post.
Like dosing nitrates and not caring about phosphates.
People do not understand they are creating dangerous unbalances.
Feed more. Put nori algae constantly even if only your CUC eat it.

I don’t agree. Feeding more adds more nitrate too. That is not always desirable.

there is nothing dangerous unless you do not understand how to do it.

 

[glb]

Have you tried adding nitrifying bacteria like Microbacter7? If not, then I would pick up a bottle along with dosing a carbon source. You could dose vodka or pick up their Reef BioFuel which is recommended when dosing their bacteria. This is what I use. It helps boost and establish your bacteria population which will help with lowering nutrients and also establish a natural bio filter.

I have Dr. Tim’s waste away, which I think does the same thing. I might have some Microbactor. I also have nopox on hand. Thanks for your help!

 

[glb]

What test kit are you using? Some of the variations you see could be from the kit. But in general, I agree with what you said. You overdosed phosphates and now your system is slowly releasing it back into the water. If I had your tank, I would measure phosphate, and as long as there are no problems with my corals, I would let it naturally fall to its equilibrium value. I would remove algae weekly and let it ride. That’s gonna take a while, but as long as corals are OK, I wouldn’t worry. I have used (overused actually) gfo in the past. If I were to use it again, I would go very slow and only use a fraction of what is recommended. Good luck.

I have a Hanna Checker for phosphates (not the ULR). It’s pretty accurate in my experience. Unfortunately, I lost all my acans. I have some zoas and rock anemones that are doing fine. I’m going to hold off on any more coral until I get things under control. Thanks!