PO4 just won’t go down. Source unknown. Need help!

[brandon429]

The one thing I'm certain is that any handling of your rock will not cause biofilter issues. Whether or not phosphate matters to any degree in the entire life arc of your tank varies among diagnosticians

If your tank was in my work thread we'd never test for it again and your tank would never have a single unpermitted growth and it would be filled with corals which reject algae growth by laying down new flesh (nobody ever posted gha attached to a plerogyra bubble, for example)

Strategies range reef dr to reef dr

 

[brandon429]

I think it says something in pattern to know that every pico reef in the world is free from phosphate management, and dosing. What then truly is the difference between a big tank and a small tank other than gallons of water, the way pico reefs are handled and fed is what really differs, our phosphate self balances always by keeping waste clouding low and feed in/ out water change workouts very consistent. its busier than large tankers want to be, but its the exact indicated action to force a tank to run correctly until you can back off on it.

 

[glb]

I think it says something in pattern to know that every pico reef in the world is free from phosphate management, and dosing. What then truly is the difference between a big tank and a small tank other than gallons of water, the way pico reefs are handled and fed is what really differs, our phosphate self balances always by keeping waste clouding low and feed in/ out water change workouts very consistent.

Thanks for your help! I tested the water in the DT and the PO4 was .36, still high, but almost half what it was in the sump. If I remove the sump rocks, can I treat them with lanthum chloride (I think that’s the name)? If so, how does that work? I also ordered a mini gfo reactor for long-term maintenance. I’ve used them in the past as needed to keep the po4 where it needs to be. I know to be very careful to not overdo it. I plan on taking it on and offline as needed.

 

[brandon429]

Ill have to watch for what the chemists recommend I literally do not test for phosphate, we do not find it to matter in systems that are hand guided for growths, and assertively fed and water-changed. we find those to be the universal ticket for throwing out the po4 test kit, then next step we take about $100 in corals and instead of plant them all around, they go mostly all on one rock, arranged accordingly for long term growth.


by design, that becomes your first exclusion rock coming up, merely the whole tank left after that lol.

we reef without measuring po4 or ever reacting to it, but the price is way more water change and feeding work than when the reef is truly tuned, purple.

 

[CuzzA]

Thanks for your help! I tested the water in the DT and the PO4 was .36, still high, but almost half what it was in the sump. If I remove the sump rocks, can I treat them with lanthum chloride (I think that’s the name)? If so, how does that work? I also ordered a mini gfo reactor for long-term maintenance. I’ve used them in the past as needed to keep the po4 where it needs to be. I know to be very careful to not overdo it. I plan on taking it on and offline as needed.

FWIW I run GFO continuously and add nutrients to desired levels. It's much easier to add than remove. Before yanking rocks I would do as I originally recommended and run GFO in a reactor. Test daily and don't let your po4 bottom out.

 

[CuzzA]

Ill have to watch for what the chemists recommend I literally do not test for phosphate, we do not find it to matter in systems that are hand guided for growths, and assertively fed and water-changed. we find those to be the universal ticket for throwing out the po4 test kit, then next step we take about $100 in corals and instead of plant them all around, they go mostly all on one rock, arranged accordingly for long term growth.


by design, that becomes your first exclusion rock coming up, merely the whole tank left after that lol.

we reef without measuring po4 or ever reacting to it, but the price is way more water change and feeding work than when the reef is truly tuned, purple.

I think you need to start clarifying that you specialize in Pico tanks. This is much different than dealing with large reefs, especially SPS reefs.

 

[brandon429]

I'm speaking from logged linkable work examples in the hundreds. You wouldn't want to assume pico reefing is that limited

there's no harm proceeding in po4 measures as well, many ways to success

 

[glb]

FWIW I run GFO continuously and add nutrients to desired levels. It's much easier to add than remove. Before yanking rocks I would do as I originally recommended and run GFO in a reactor. Test daily and don't let your po4 bottom out.

The reactor is on the way! I’ll keep you posted.

 

[Spkarim]

For my 40b with 20g sump, I started running 50g RowaPhos in a BRS reactor and it brought down phosphate from 0.25 to close to 0 in a few days. Worked so well, I turned it off to watch the values. I will use the reactor intermittently as needed.

 

[CuzzA]

I'm speaking from logged linkable work examples in the hundreds. You wouldn't want to assume pico reefing is that limited

Not testing for po4 in a SPS dominate reef is a recipe for disaster. Po4 testing is as important as alkalinity. And you can't know, unless you test. I'll put it this way. My LFS has a 650 gallon 100% SPS display with 10's of thousand's of dollars of coral and if he didn't test daily to maintain the massive amount of phosphate his reef eats it would bottom out in a heart beat and corals would be turning pale and necrotizing left and right.

Nevertheless, I don't want to derail this thread. Perhaps a new thread would be better for the subject.

 

[glb]

For my 40b with 20g sump, I started running 50g RowaPhos in a BRS reactor and it brought down phosphate from 0.25 to close to 0 in a few days. Worked so well, I turned it off to watch the values. I will use the reactor intermittently as needed.

Thanks!

 

[glb]

Not testing for po4 in a SPS dominate reef is a recipe for disaster. Po4 testing is as important as alkalinity. And you can't know, unless you test. I'll put it this way. My LFS has a 650 gallon 100% SPS display with 10's of thousand's of dollars of coral and if he didn't test daily to maintain the massive amount of phosphate his reef eats it would bottom out in a heart beat and corals would be turning pale and necrotizing left and right.

Nevertheless, I don't want to derail this thread. Perhaps a new thread would be better for the subject.

Luckily with LPS and softies, I don’t have to be quite as careful. I plan on keeping the tank at NO3: 5-10, and PO4: 0.03-0.08.

 

[brandon429]

just wanting to show spectrum of start and testing options and examples of dry starts where po4 is not factored, but CPR in out feeding and direct stocking and hand guiding, so simple. he's only done a few partial changes, not huge work. we are about to use corals to displace typical invasions, plus directed hand guiding and occasional deep cleaning

Cycling a new Biocube 32

not using nitrate absorbing or phosphate absorbing media, using those too soon + dry rock starts is implicated to be the number one cause of dinos in the big dino study threads, its why we want to wait to run any media that specifically absorbs either nitrate or phosphate. An imbalance there can...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[glb]

If I wanted to take the rocks out of my sump, how could I treat them to remove the phosphate??

 

[brandon429]

If you subscribe to the school of thought that the po4 is locked in calcium carbonate, then you'll have to acid dissolve layers until verified accurate po4 testing/ use two testers see if agreed/ says its lower than an initial test

If you feel that phosphate is bound in removable external organics, rough cleaning will work until comparative tests shows a drop

If there's another way to fix it someone will chime in. Has this rock been in use/ in tank for two years or so, or is this new rock

Two years counts as patient curing if so

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for your help! I tested the water in the DT and the PO4 was .36, still high, but almost half what it was in the sump. If I remove the sump rocks, can I treat them with lanthum chloride (I think that’s the name)? If so, how does that work? I also ordered a mini gfo reactor for long-term maintenance. I’ve used them in the past as needed to keep the po4 where it needs to be. I know to be very careful to not overdo it. I plan on taking it on and offline as needed.

That aspect sounds like a test error to me. Unless the flow is incredibly slow, i cannot see how the sump has 0.18 ppm more phosphate than the display tank (unless you are measuring upstream from something like a GFO reactor)..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If you subscribe to the school of thought that the po4 is locked in calcium carbonate, then you'll have to acid dissolve layers until verified accurate po4 testing/ use two testers see if agreed/ says its lower than an initial test

If you feel that phosphate is bound in removable external organics, rough cleaning will work until comparative tests shows a drop

If there's another way to fix it someone will chime in. Has this rock been in use/ in tank for two years or so, or is this new rock

Two years counts as patient curing if so

That doesn't make sense. If you need acid to dissolve the calcium carbonate to get phosphate to release, then it isn't being released to the tank without acid and isn't a concern. You can speed the removal with acid, but it is not "needed".

 

[brandon429]

I read in your posts that was a mechanism bacteria cause as they do their work in position, did I read that wrong


what are the other release mechanisms / his answer for the bound version not from organics? I didn’t think it was a free and constant exchange with the tank water in and out of rock.

it’s good to have at least one example on file above of not having to concern about it though, corals are about to fill up there. curious to know mechanisms for unbinding, non acid based

 

[glb]

That aspect sounds like a test error to me. Unless the flow is incredibly slow, i cannot see how the sump has 0.18 ppm more phosphate than the display tank (unless you are measuring upstream from something like a GFO reactor)..

I think the chamber I was testing from in the sump has the highest po4 because the po4 overdose happened in that chamber and the rocks absorbed it. It could be that my flow in the sump is slow, but that’s my guess about why the numbers are different. I’ve tested from each area twice now and got similar results.

 

[glb]

If you subscribe to the school of thought that the po4 is locked in calcium carbonate, then you'll have to acid dissolve layers until verified accurate po4 testing/ use two testers see if agreed/ says its lower than an initial test

If you feel that phosphate is bound in removable external organics, rough cleaning will work until comparative tests shows a drop

If there's another way to fix it someone will chime in. Has this rock been in use/ in tank for two years or so, or is this new rock

Two years counts as patient curing if so

The rock is original to the tank, which is about 3 years old. It started as dry rock.