Poll: 2 Part dosing and equal/unequal amounts

[Bitcoin Reefer]

I am currently dosing around 4x cal:alk, 220ml Calcium to 50ml Alkalinity in my 300g 2 year old mixed reef. Currently 400 Cal, 10.1 Alk.


It didn't start like this, I was dosing even amounts for long time, but my calcium was always low. Am I making a mistake here? I should probably note that my Red Sea Calcium test could be a bit off, but not much? When I was at 435 Calcium on my Red Sea test, same day I sent in ICP test and got 460 back. This shouldn't effect my situation much though? I have mostly LPS & Softies, with few SPS. Here are some photos of tank if it helps at all lol to see what is consuming the calcium?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am currently dosing around 4x cal:alk, 220ml Calcium to 50ml Alkalinity in my 300g 2 year old mixed reef. Currently 400 Cal, 10.1 Alk.


It didn't start like this, I was dosing even amounts for long time, but my calcium was always low. Am I making a mistake here? I should probably note that my Red Sea Calcium test could be a bit off, but not much? When I was at 435 Calcium on my Red Sea test, same day I sent in ICP test and got 460 back. This shouldn't effect my situation much though? I have mostly LPS & Softies, with few SPS. Here are some photos of tank if it helps at all lol to see what is consuming the calcium?

What are you dosing?

it is impossible to consume calcium without consuming the proportional amount of alk. What is possible us to be adding alk in a way you do not recognize, such as top off water, dosing nitrate, falling nitrate, or water changes with a mix higher in alk than your tank or lower in calcium than your tank.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

What are you dosing?

it is impossible to consume calcium without consuming the proportional amount of alk. What is possible us to be adding alk in a way you do not recognize, such as top off water, dosing nitrate, falling nitrate, or water changes with a mix higher in alk than your tank or lower in calcium than your tank.

I am dosing 2 part b-ionic.
I am dosing NeoNitro and NeoPhos, but I just started these in the last couple of weeks for first time ever, and had the calcium issue for 3-4 months before this. My top off water is RODI 0 PPM. I am using Red Sea Coral Pro which mixes similar to my current values, except mixes higher calcium than my current calcium. As for nitrates falling or rising. I'll post photo of my chemistry for last 4 months. Here is link to google sheets if you want to view it easier:
Anything with up carrot ^ means I'm adding it to tank. Other values are testing. Mostly self explanatory.

Thanks for jumping in @Randy Holmes-Farley !!!

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Wow looks like it's embedded so you can view spreadsheet from the post?! Cool!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Shouldn’t Red Sea Coral Pro be much higher than your tank in alk? Like 11+ dKH?

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Yes you're right. My alkalinity is 10.1 right now, but has been fluctuating around 10-11 last few weeks. The Coral Pro salt says it mixes at about 12 for my 1.025 salinity. I do 33% 100g water change once a month, but for a while was not doing water changes trying to keep parameters level by dosing and feeding only. Coral's weren't healthy.

Shouldn’t Red Sea Coral Pro be much higher than your tank in alk? Like 11+ dKH?

Would this effect my oddly multiple x's calc:alk? Seems so odd that I'm dosing 4x or more. Otherwise, any other thoughts?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes you're right. My alkalinity is 10.1 right now, but has been fluctuating around 10-11 last few weeks. The Coral Pro salt says it mixes at about 12 for my 1.025 salinity. I do 33% 100g water change once a month, but for a while was not doing water changes trying to keep parameters level by dosing and feeding only. Coral's weren't healthy.

Would this effect my oddly multiple x's calc:alk? Seems so odd that I'm dosing 4x or more. Otherwise, any other thoughts?

FWIW, ESV B-ionic comes both as a concentrate and as a fully diluted version.

Are you sure you are using both fully diluted?

How much of the ESV do you dese each day to what total water volume?

The smaller the daily demand, in dKH per day, the more likely that more minor processes add or consume a significant amount of alkalinity.

Do you dose anything else? Some additives can add or deplete alkalinity.

This article may be of interest:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[ClownSchool]

I am currently dosing around 4x cal:alk, 220ml Calcium to 50ml Alkalinity in my 300g 2 year old mixed reef. Currently 400 Cal, 10.1 Alk.


It didn't start like this, I was dosing even amounts for long time, but my calcium was always low. Am I making a mistake here? I should probably note that my Red Sea Calcium test could be a bit off, but not much? When I was at 435 Calcium on my Red Sea test, same day I sent in ICP test and got 460 back. This shouldn't effect my situation much though? I have mostly LPS & Softies, with few SPS. Here are some photos of tank if it helps at all lol to see what is consuming the calcium?

I’ve been told by my LFS guy that dosing Kalkwasser can balance that back out. I use it and it has kept my two-part drift within about 10% of one another.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’ve been told by my LFS guy that dosing Kalkwasser can balance that back out. I use it and it has kept my two-part drift within about 10% of one another.

Not sure what that means. It will help a tiny bit to correct an apparent need for more calcium, but would make the opposite drift worse.

Kalkwasser adds very slightly more calcium than alk relative to demand in the tank. It adds a nearly perfect ratio for calcium carbonate formation, but in seawater, magnesium and a little strontium get into calcium carbonate in place of some of the calcium, reducing the amount of calcium used. Thus, in a tank using just kalkwasser for calcium and alk, calcium will rise long term. I dealt with that by using a low calcium mix for water changes.

In the case of Bitcoin, he does report he needs to dose more calcium than alk, and kalkwasser will provide a tiny bit of that extra calcium, but not very much.

 

[ClownSchool]

Not sure what that means. It will help a tiny bit to correct an apparent need for more calcium, but would make the opposite drift worse.

Kalkwasser adds very slightly more calcium than alk relative to demand in the tank. It adds a nearly perfect ratio for calcium carboante formation, but in seawater, magnesum and a little strontium get into calcium carboante in place of some of the calcium, reducing the amount of calcioum used. Thus, in a tnak using just kalkwasser for calcium and alk, calcium will rise long term. I dealt with that by using a low calcium mix for water changes.

In the case of Bitcoin, he does report he needs to dose more calcium than alk, and kalkwasser will provide a tiny bit of that extra calcium, but not very much.

Well, I guess that’s another strike against LFS guy. His batting average isn’t so good.
It’s probably helped my situation because - like you said - my drift isn’t as bad as Bitcoin’s

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

FWIW, ESV B-ionic comes both as a concentrate and as a fully diluted version.

Are you sure you are using both fully diluted?

How much of the ESV do you dese each day to what total water volume?

The smaller the daily demand, in dKH per day, the more likely that more minor processes add or consume a significant amount of alkalinity.

Do you dose anything else? Some additives can add or deplete alkalinity.

This article may be of interest:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Yes I followed the instructions to dilute exactly to the ML. I'm on 3rd batch (went with 2x4 gallon buckets this time), and it's been climbing with all of them.

300Gal mixed reef + 60gal Refugium with Chaeto. 20 months old. Moderately stocked.
Currently I'm using 250ml calcium, 50ml Alkalinity, but that's a little more than needed because my Calcium is a little low at the moment. I estimate once I get back up to 425Calcium I'll drop down to around 220ml Calcium 50ml Alkalinity.

I also dose 15ml/day NeoNitro and 10ml/day NeoPhos, but just started those in last couple of weeks, and I've had the imbalance issue for months. I also dose 6ml/day Silica SpongExcel. You can see the Calcium dosing going higher and higher for the last 4 months via my spreadsheet linked 6 posts up Thanks again Randy!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

In 300 gallons total water volume, 50 mL of the original ESV B-ionic adds only 0.35 dKH of alkalinity
In that same volume, 250 mL of the calcium part adds about 13 ppm of calcium.

How much alk must come from another source to balance out that calcium? 13 ppm calcium is balanced by about 1.9 dKH., so we are taking about a source of 1.55 dKH of alk every day.

That's really quite a lot and is very hard to explain in any direct way other than an error of some sort.

Are you certain of the volumes dosed, and it is not a pump difference issue? That's a common misunderstanding. Just because you tell a pump to deliver 50 ml does not necessarily mean it is delivering that much.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

In 300 gallons total water volume, 50 mL of the original ESV B-ionic adds only 0.35 dKH of alkalinity
In that same volume, 250 mL of the calcium part adds about 13 ppm of calcium.

How much alk must come from another source to balance out that calcium? 13 ppm calcium is balanced by about 1.9 dKH., so we are taking about a source of 1.55 dKH of alk every day.

That's really quite a lot and is very hard to explain in any direct way other than an error of some sort.

Are you certain of the volumes dosed, and it is not a pump difference issue? That's a common misunderstanding. Just because you tell a pump to deliver 50 ml does not necessarily mean it is delivering that much.

I manually dose everything so I can understand better what's happening and control and have accuracy I use graduated cylinders every single day and write it down every single day on spreadsheet I shared above to prevent any mistakes.

dang so what else can we do lol? is this bad? I don't know if this is relevant at all, but I've never had precipitation anywhere in the tank, not on heaters, pumps, powerheads etc. I have been historically low on Calcium for long time, ranging from like 370-430, but averaging like 400 for long time.

I ordered a new Red Sea Calcium Test Kit, I did ICP test on same day as Red Sea once and got 462 ICP, and 435 Red Sea. I tried also using two alk test kits API + Hanna Checker, and they were within I think like .7 max difference.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I manually dose everything so I can understand better what's happening and control and have accuracy I use graduated cylinders every single day and write it down every single day on spreadsheet I shared above to prevent any mistakes.

dang so what else can we do lol? is this bad? I don't know if this is relevant at all, but I've never had precipitation anywhere in the tank, not on heaters, pumps, powerheads etc. I have been historically low on Calcium for long time, ranging from like 370-430, but averaging like 400 for long time.

It's unusual, but it's only a very minor problem and the problem relates to the residual ions left over after the calcium and alk are used by organisms. The two parts of the additive contain different halves of the other seawater ions (such as magnesium in the calcium part and sulfate in the alk part). If dosing is not roughly 1:1, these two halves do not add up to look exactly like seawater.

In any case, I wouldn't worry about it if you do regular water changes.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

It's unusual, but it's only a very minor problem and the problem relates to the residual ions left over after the calcium and alk are used by organisms. The two parts of the additive contain different halves of the other seawater ions (such as magnesium in the calcium part and sulfate in the alk part). If dosing is not roughly 1:1, these two halves do not add up to look exactly like seawater.

In any case, I wouldn't worry about it if you do regular water changes.

Ok thank you sir. My Magnesium has always been pretty solid with no dosing. Between 1200-1400 over last 4 or 5 months.

Interestingly. I was trying to do no water changes for a while and just keep all chemistry good with dosing, export, feeding, etc, and coral health got bad even though chemistry was good, even by ICP. Don't know what was going on, maybe Dino toxins building up over months, totally likely, but either way I'm back to 33% 100g water changes once a month now, and it's correcting whatever was wrong, for the most part. ******* Dinos still hurting some coral.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Ok thank you sir. My Magnesium has always been pretty solid with no dosing. Between 1200-1400 over last 4 or 5 months.

Interestingly. I was trying to do no water changes for a while and just keep all chemistry good with dosing, export, feeding, etc, and coral health got bad even though chemistry was good, even by ICP. Don't know what was going on, maybe Dino toxins building up over months, totally likely, but either way I'm back to 33% 100g water changes once a month now, and it's correcting whatever was wrong, for the most part. ******* Dinos still hurting some coral.

@Randy Holmes-Farley I bought a new Red Sea Calcium Test Kit to be safe, and also because I was almost out of reagants, and the results are insanely off. Old Red Sea kit read 430, new kit shows 600. What the actual ****. Do these kits go bad over time? I bought the first kit 9 months ago. Is Red Sea on these forums? Would love to tag and see what the heck is going on.

So it looks like your hunch that something was off was right. When I looked at last time I did ICP and results weren't too far off. My Cal to Alk dosing was 46 to 28, and at the time my test showed 435 and ICP showed 462, Alk was 11.1DKH.

Oddly. I'm surprised I don't have precipitation. At 600 Calcium and 9.1 Alk, dosing currently 210ml Cal, 70alk. I Would think the Calcium might be eating up the alk by precipitation?

Sigh. I guess I need to send in ICP more often. That was 3 months ago. I don't get how test could go so off in that time. Is it at the end of the tests are the reagants more or less concentrated or something?

I guess at this point I'll try to reset and do 1:1 dosing and see what happens and adjust from there. I hope the NEW kit isn't off and old kit is correct. Grrrrr.