Poll: 2 Part dosing and equal/unequal amounts

Do you dose an equal amount of 2 part?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.
Because, increased coralline growth lowers Alkalinity.

But it also lowers calcium by a proportional amount thst the two part correctly accounts for. :)
 
What dosing solutions?

The lower the daily alk and calcium demand, the more likely they are to not match due to minor processes becoming relatively more significant.

Ever measure the alk and calcium of the new salt water?

Nitrate stable at 15 pm and say, 1.5% of the water changed daily means tht nitrate is accumulating at 0.22 ppm per day, or 7 ppm per month.

That depletes alk by 0.3 dKH per month, so that's not much.

Just cycling back here after a week of testing and adjustments.

Settled on 54ml/day Calcium and 72ml/day Alk to maintain 430ppm and 8.3dkh. And 108ml Part C mixed at the recommended half dilution of 4 scoops/gal

Does that sound unreasonable @Randy Holmes-Farley ?
Any more had my calcium creeping up to 500
 
Just cycling back here after a week of testing and adjustments.

Settled on 54ml/day Calcium and 72ml/day Alk to maintain 430ppm and 8.3dkh. And 108ml Part C mixed at the recommended half dilution of 4 scoops/gal

Does that sound unreasonable @Randy Holmes-Farley ?
Any more had my calcium creeping up to 500

That seems reasonable if it maintains your target levels. :)
 
Folks reading this should not fall for the myth that every tank is different and unbalanced demand is common. It is not.

For many folks, if they used a two part designed for equal dosing (some are not properly designed) and dosed equally, they would hardly notice a difference from their unbalanced dosing.

but in those few cases where demand is unbalanced, it is generally becahse there are sources and sinks for alk (rarely, calcium) that they are not recognizing.

Most often, water changes cause the imbalance. Dosing nitrate adds alk. Accumulating nitrate depletes alkalinity. Sulfur denitrators deplete alk.

There are few other real effects.

Folks focusing on unequal dosing should think about reefers using CaCO3/CO2 reactors or limewater . They do not need unbalanced dosing, at least in the short term? Why not? Make sure you are not fussing with something just because you can. lol

Hey Randy. You've always trusted ESV bionic and I've made the decision to change from All For Reef, which is formate, to Bionic. I was going to use Reef Essentials Pro but they also use part formate and I'm tired of having a delay in alk showing up on tests as I'm planning to automate daily fine tuning with a Reef Factory KH Keeper.

My question to you is since I use a sulfur denitrator my alk consumption is always higher. I have no idea the current percentage as I was using AFR and TM balling C and could never figure out the exact percentage as I always got alk swings. However since ESC Bionic is meant to be used as a 1:1, and the owner on another thread said up to 10% shift using one over the other shouldn't matter, can I still use ESV Bionic even though I'm probably around 60:40 to 80:20. ESV makes a liquid carbonate buffer for just alk but I really don't want to have to dose 2 alks again.

There just isn't much information online about sulfur denitrators and 2 part dosing so hoping you can help. thanks!
 
Hey Randy. You've always trusted ESV bionic and I've made the decision to change from All For Reef, which is formate, to Bionic. I was going to use Reef Essentials Pro but they also use part formate and I'm tired of having a delay in alk showing up on tests as I'm planning to automate daily fine tuning with a Reef Factory KH Keeper.

My question to you is since I use a sulfur denitrator my alk consumption is always higher. I have no idea the current percentage as I was using AFR and TM balling C and could never figure out the exact percentage as I always got alk swings. However since ESC Bionic is meant to be used as a 1:1, and the owner on another thread said up to 10% shift using one over the other shouldn't matter, can I still use ESV Bionic even though I'm probably around 60:40 to 80:20. ESV makes a liquid carbonate buffer for just alk but I really don't want to have to dose 2 alks again.

There just isn't much information online about sulfur denitrators and 2 part dosing so hoping you can help. thanks!

IMO, when demand is unequal, there is no 100% perfect answer for ionic balance (at least without knowing the degree of imbalance and designing a two part specifically for each scenario).

IMO, it is still better to use a balanced two part such as ESV even if it is not 1:1 dosing, than making corrections in other (unbalanced) ways, such as just using an ordinary alk supplement.
 
IMO, when demand is unequal, there is no 100% perfect answer for ionic balance (at least without knowing the degree of imbalance and designing a two part specifically for each scenario).

IMO, it is still better to use a balanced two part such as ESV even if it is not 1:1 dosing, than making corrections in other (unbalanced) ways, such as just using an ordinary alk supplement.
I had a feeling you were going to say that! haha I've got some bicarb and soda ash from BRS so I'll start with soda ash and see how the PH does. I think bionic is all soda ash also. thanks!
 
IMO, when demand is unequal, there is no 100% perfect answer for ionic balance (at least without knowing the degree of imbalance and designing a two part specifically for each scenario).

IMO, it is still better to use a balanced two part such as ESV even if it is not 1:1 dosing, than making corrections in other (unbalanced) ways, such as just using an ordinary alk supplement.
would something like fritz rpm elements 3 part without trace work better? I use reef moonshiners and dose dailies, and icp tests monthly to fix the rest. I've been doing it for a few months so I know roughly my monthly correction dose so I've been dosing them weekly at 1/5th. Probabely something I need to bring up with Andre but figured I'd ask if you knew. He always recommends brightwell alkalin8.3 which I don't want to use.

I was always under the assumption that dosing some trace with 2 part would be better, but since you recommended alk, esv alk, esv calcium, I'm wondering if just forgoing it entirely and using a good 3 part. Wanted the pure sodium carbonate to increase PH so fritz looked like the best option.

Sorry for all the questions. =)
 
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I used to dose equal parts until I started Kalkwasser now its unknown. Kalkwasser is flowing threw my kalk stirrer at the rate of my ATO and then I dose alk to supplement to the level I like to keep.
 
I used to dose equal parts until I started Kalkwasser now its unknown. Kalkwasser is flowing threw my kalk stirrer at the rate of my ATO and then I dose alk to supplement to the level I like to keep.
Seems a lot of people dose alk from 2 different sources. My only experience with that is with All For Reef and TM Alk. Both completely different alk. AFR dosing doesn't show up immediately so I can't really adjust accurately, and also dose a carbonate. So I have swings higher than I want.

I think it should be easier, like you said, to dose 2 alks as long as one of them isn't organic alk. Kalk isn't for me though. Just one more thing to go wrong. haha
 
Seems a lot of people dose alk from 2 different sources. My only experience with that is with All For Reef and TM Alk. Both completely different alk. AFR dosing doesn't show up immediately so I can't really adjust accurately, and also dose a carbonate. So I have swings higher than I want.

I think it should be easier, like you said, to dose 2 alks as long as one of them isn't organic alk. Kalk isn't for me though. Just one more thing to go wrong. haha
Kalk has been around for a long time, in your opinion what should one be concerned with going wrong if using Kalk? I started using it for the PH benefit and the low cost. I use Kalk in an Avast Marin stirrer and I on dose as much as my ATO allows. I have my ATO solenoid plumbed to the feed of my stirrer as the method of dosing
 
would something like fritz rpm elements 3 part without trace work better? I use reef moonshiners and dose dailies, and icp tests monthly to fix the rest. I've been doing it for a few months so I know roughly my monthly correction dose so I've been dosing them weekly at 1/5th. Probabely something I need to bring up with Andre but figured I'd ask if you knew. He always recommends brightwell alkalin8.3 which I don't want to use.

I was always under the assumption that dosing some trace with 2 part would be better, but since you recommended alk, esv alk, esv calcium, I'm wondering if just forgoing it entirely and using a good 3 part. Wanted the pure sodium carbonate to increase PH so fritz looked like the best option.

Sorry for all the questions. =)

Nothing else will be better than the ESV in this context.

if you believe you need additional trace elements, I’d look for a mix with iron and manganese, and TM A and K is likely a fine choice.
 
Kalk has been around for a long time, in your opinion what should one be concerned with going wrong if using Kalk? I started using it for the PH benefit and the low cost. I use Kalk in an Avast Marin stirrer and I on dose as much as my ATO allows. I have my ATO solenoid plumbed to the feed of my stirrer as the method of dosing
Solenoid is a good idea. I was thinking a Kamoer doser that turns on when tank level get low. I actually bought an avast Kalk stirrer few months ago. Just never used it as I could never get my alk in check easily. Figured it would be another headache and not much easier. Will probably sell it soon as it’s too small for new tank on order. I ended up buying a co2 scrubber but that needs media every 2 weeks. Thought I was getting alk swings when I replaced the media but just determined it wasn’t from that. Thought it was from dosing TM magnesium as I didn’t realize it had calcium and other trace. I do weekly maintenance doses based on ICP tests for reef moonshiners for all trace elements and my alk consumption sometimes goes up 50% the next day so, yeah, dang alk swings. Thought is was the calcium from the magnesium that got it over 500. Nope. Just measured and it’s 450 with Hanna. Icp always shows good with minimal corrections for reef moonshiners.

So essentially I may one day use kalk but wanted to see what ph I could get using carbonate instead of formate, and if I could finally get my alk swings in check with dosers. Andre from reef moonshiners actually doesn’t recommend them but I can’t remember why. If I want to do Kalk, then why not go further and use sodium hydroxide? Haha.

Sulfur denitrators work great for no3 but they are a ***** to work with dosing 2 part correctly.

Currently in the process of building basement sump and frag tank for custom 250gal gal tank on order so hoping to get this all down and working on current 60gal first.

image.jpg
 
Nothing else will be better than the ESV in this context.

if you believe you need additional trace elements, I’d look for a mix with iron and manganese, and TM A and K is likely a fine choice.
I appreciate your advice. I will continue with ESV then. I may end up one day trying your sodium hydroxide 2 part, or Kalk. Too bad you don’t premake it and sell it. Thanks again!
 
Thanks for the link. Just read the full article. Unfortunately every tank is different and the use of a sulfur denitrator, or anything that may require alk or calcium dosed at different levels isn’t detailed. Still good reading.
 
Thanks for the link. Just read the full article. Unfortunately every tank is different and the use of a sulfur denitrator, or anything that may require alk or calcium dosed at different levels isn’t detailed. Still good reading.

FWIW, I do not think that author has a good understanding of the product, and would not rely on it to teach what a two part, or ESV B-ionic specifically can accomplish. It has multiple errors in it.
 
I believe I have a better description of what a two part does here:


from it:

Two-part Balanced Additive Systems

There are now a plethora of two-part balanced systems for supplementing calcium and alkalinity, as well as DIY recipes that I have published and for which suppliers sell quality DIY ingredients. These are always liquid additives that you add equally to tanks to supplement both calcium and alkalinity. In the DIY version, magnesium is added to the aquarium as a third solution, although it need not be added especially frequently. The rational for this type of product is that the bicarbonate and carbonate that one might like to dose to supplement alkalinity are not readily compatible with the calcium that is also needed. So one portion contains calcium and the other contains the alkalinity. When a DIY is used, the magnesium sulfate in it is not compatible with either part, so it needs its own solution.

In the simplest form, such a system would be provided by any calcium salt at one concentration in one bottle, and a carbonate alkalinity supplement in the other bottle. Within that constraint, manufacturers have a fair amount of room to play. Typically these additives claim go a step further. When the calcium and alkalinity are taken out of the picture, as they will be by calcification in the tank, then the ions that remain are often described as having the same ratios of ions as natural seawater. Assuming that this is true, then the “residue” is simply more salt for the aquarium. Over long periods of time the salinity will build up due to this process (an effect that is quantified below), but there will be no significant buildup of specific ions in the tank.

In order to accomplish this, manufacturers could use a variety of calcium salts in the calcium portion, for example. They could use calcium chloride, calcium sulfate, calcium bromide, and a variety of other similar salts. They could also put magnesium and strontium in this portion as they would not be compatible with the alkalinity component.

The alkalinity portion of these systems is more complicated. As has been shown in other parts of this article, alkalinity can be provided as bicarbonate, carbonate, or hydroxide. I don’t know of any commercial supplements that use hydroxide for a two part system, but the commercial ones do use bicarbonate, carbonate, and mixtures thereof. Consequently the pH varies substantially between brands, and the various brands of these products should not be thought of as identical for this reason, if no other. In order to attain the natural seawater residue, the alkalinity portion could contain sodium bicarbonate or carbonate, potassium bicarbonate or carbonate, lithium bicarbonate or carbonate, etc.

I’ve not seen any independent test of whether these actually produce a residue equivalent to natural seawater, but I’ve seen no particular reason to doubt it, at least for the major ions. When it comes to the trace elements that might concern some reef keepers, it seems unlikely that these products will be any less prone to having uncontrolled levels of trace compounds like copper than are commercial salt mixes, or any other supplement of calcium and alkalinity, but that remains to be determined (at least as far as I know).

One issue that has confused some reef keepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (let’s call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since copper is elevated in some reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

You have copper in your aquarium at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.

You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.

Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

The rise in salinity of these products over time can be very roughly calculated, though there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion (and the matching amount of calcium) these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined later to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (0.4 dKH/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S ~35). In a high demand tank (defined later to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (4.4 dKH/day)), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using these types of additives, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.

Many people have begun to use dosing pumps to deliver these sorts of additives more uniformly across a day/night period with less work by the aquarist. Such pumps can be obtained starting under $100 for each part dosed this way. There is no need to dose the magnesium part this way, since very little is actually required and once a week is plenty often enough.

The costs of these systems vary a bit. The original B-ionic from ESV costs about $34 for 1 gallon of both parts (10,600 meq of alkalinity), or about $3.20 per thousand meq of alkalinity. It has a pH raising effect, similar to my DIY Recipe 1. The B-ionic Bicarbonate version is more expensive, and is necessarily more dilute than is the original because sodium bicarbonate is much less soluble than is sodium carbonate. If your tank pH gets too high using one of them (such as the original B-ionic), then it is reasonable to switch to one that has a smaller pH raising effect (like the bicarbonate B-ionic or my DIY Recipe 2 using baking soda).

The DIY recipes can be far less expensive, depending on what grade of ingredients you use. Buying ingredients from a place such as Bulk Reef Supply will cost roughly $10 per gallon (total cost of all parts, so 1 gallon calcium, 1 gallon alkalinity, and a few cups of magnesium additive), or about $1.40 per thousand meq of alkalinity.
 
Solenoid is a good idea. I was thinking a Kamoer doser that turns on when tank level get low. I actually bought an avast Kalk stirrer few months ago. Just never used it as I could never get my alk in check easily. Figured it would be another headache and not much easier. Will probably sell it soon as it’s too small for new tank on order. I ended up buying a co2 scrubber but that needs media every 2 weeks. Thought I was getting alk swings when I replaced the media but just determined it wasn’t from that. Thought it was from dosing TM magnesium as I didn’t realize it had calcium and other trace. I do weekly maintenance doses based on ICP tests for reef moonshiners for all trace elements and my alk consumption sometimes goes up 50% the next day so, yeah, dang alk swings. Thought is was the calcium from the magnesium that got it over 500. Nope. Just measured and it’s 450 with Hanna. Icp always shows good with minimal corrections for reef moonshiners.

So essentially I may one day use kalk but wanted to see what ph I could get using carbonate instead of formate, and if I could finally get my alk swings in check with dosers. Andre from reef moonshiners actually doesn’t recommend them but I can’t remember why. If I want to do Kalk, then why not go further and use sodium hydroxide? Haha.

Sulfur denitrators work great for no3 but they are a ***** to work with dosing 2 part correctly.

Currently in the process of building basement sump and frag tank for custom 250gal gal tank on order so hoping to get this all down and working on current 60gal first.

image.jpg
Nice filtration setup! Is that a Bashsea SS60 or SS48? I have a Ferari Bashsea SS48 but the older version new in the box but I need to sell it for a loss since I am going Red Sea Reef mat 1200. I am in Florida so not lucky to have a basement like I had when I live in Rhode Island. I have a custom 230 not sure if I want the 48 with 2ft in cabinet or the 60 and 1 ft in the cabinet. still scratching my head.
 
Nice filtration setup! Is that a Bashsea SS60 or SS48? I have a Ferari Bashsea SS48 but the older version new in the box but I need to sell it for a loss since I am going Red Sea Reef mat 1200. I am in Florida so not lucky to have a basement like I had when I live in Rhode Island. I have a custom 230 not sure if I want the 48 with 2ft in cabinet or the 60 and 1 ft in the cabinet. still scratching my head.


thanks. It's a slow process...

The sump is their new pro line at 60". Not sure why they don't even have them on their website but their dealers sell them direct. https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/pro-series-60-filter-roller-sump-bashsea/

Once I can afford it I plan on adding a deltec filter roller. I have the 8-24 skimmer and 8-24 bio reactor, plus the 2 extra reactors on a manifold. I'm freaking broke after buying all this! haha Who would have thought even plumbing parts are so expensive!

At least with slab construction you can put any tank size anywhere! My quote to beef up the floor for a 225gal is $6,000! Hoping a family member who also does construction can do it cheaper. I ordered a 72"x30"x26"H from CDA with aluminum white panel frame and canopy. Reef factory LED's and dosers, and of course Apex.

The 48" should be fine for you, plus leave room for electronics and external reactors and dosers, and whatever else that may come out in the future. I did the 60" because it's in the basement so plenty of room, plus I need to plumb in a 48"x24"x12"H frag tank.
 
thanks. It's a slow process...

The sump is their new pro line at 60". Not sure why they don't even have them on their website but their dealers sell them direct. https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/pro-series-60-filter-roller-sump-bashsea/

Once I can afford it I plan on adding a deltec filter roller. I have the 8-24 skimmer and 8-24 bio reactor, plus the 2 extra reactors on a manifold. I'm freaking broke after buying all this! haha Who would have thought even plumbing parts are so expensive!

At least with slab construction you can put any tank size anywhere! My quote to beef up the floor for a 225gal is $6,000! Hoping a family member who also does construction can do it cheaper. I ordered a 72"x30"x26"H from CDA with aluminum white panel frame and canopy. Reef factory LED's and dosers, and of course Apex.

The 48" should be fine for you, plus leave room for electronics and external reactors and dosers, and whatever else that may come out in the future. I did the 60" because it's in the basement so plenty of room, plus I need to plumb in a 48"x24"x12"H frag tank.
Holly smokes!

Sound like a fabulous dream build. I do everything on the frugal… I once in a while I will splurge on new equipment but most of the time I look for those deals.
Good luck with the rest of your build it looks Awesome so far.
 

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