POLL: when do you consider a tank mature?

[saltyfilmfolks]

You're right - that would be a way to prove the point. Thats why I suggested it as a BRS video experiment. In any case, there is no doubt that some livestock is more touchy than others, and as I said in one of my posts before, putting a piece of livestock that requires 'critters' only present on live rock to survive would not be a good idea in a 'new' aquarium. My comments were only based on the 'chemistry' of cycling.

I think you should try it. IMO the reason brs doesn't do it is because it doesn't work.

The chemistry of cycling is only referring to the nitrogen cycle. The chemistry of a mature reef and the animals needs thatbit sustains is far more complex. The nitrogen cycle is is farly basic. I highly encourage you to read the Red Sea maturation method. Is the most easily read and far less misleading sales talk and lay out many of the other processes.

Just the chemical process that happens when you drop dry aragonite into sewater of a ph of around 8, is highly complex. Even with mature water (like in a frag tank) a snail will likely not crawl on it. Can't actually due to ph on the surface of the rock(its buffering). And that's just the start on day one.

By refuting one named species with specialized needs does kinda refute your own argument however. I can list many in that case that would meet the same criteria. I did in fact.

Apart from mineal chemistry concerns , I think a concept oft forgotten in maturation discussions amongst hobbiests is microbiota or Microbiome and the needs of the lower forms of life (corals) dependance on them.

The cycle is just the tip of the iceberg.
It's really quite fascinating. .

 

[MnFish1]

I think you should try it. IMO the reason brs doesn't do it is because it doesn't work.

The chemistry of cycling is only referring to the nitrogen cycle. The chemistry of a mature reef and the animals needs thatbit sustains is far more complex. The nitrogen cycle is is farly basic. I highly encourage you to read the Red Sea maturation method. Is the most easily read and far less misleading sales talk and lay out many of the other processes.

Just the chemical process that happens when you drop dry aragonite into sewater of a ph of around 8, is highly complex. Even with mature water (like in a frag tank) a snail will likely not crawl on it. Can't actually due to ph on the surface of the rock(its buffering). And that's just the start on day one.

By refuting one named species with specialized needs does kinda refute your own argument however. I can list many in that case that would meet the same criteria. I did in fact.

Apart from mineal chemistry concerns , I think a concept oft forgotten in maturation discussions amongst hobbiests is microbiota or Microbiome and the needs of the lower forms of life (corals) dependance on them.

The cycle is just the tip of the iceberg.
It's really quite fascinating. .

I guess I would ask you - "what doesn't work?" All I was suggesting is that I don't believe that cycling a tank for weeks is necessary, i.e. that you could take a tank, add rock, 2 fish and some coral the appropriate bacteria and appropriate amount of livestock and in 6 months it would look the same as a tank that had rock in it for a month then 1 fish for a month, then 2 fish for a month then a piece of coral for a month etc.

The Red Sea Maturation method may be a great system. Not sure it counters my argument above.

In one of my posts I said that of course, if a certain fish/coral/invertebrate requires a certain specific food/etc that only develops after a tank is running for a year, this would be an exception. Most do not. And the problem with that type of livestock is that often the food they require runs out - and they die anyway (maybe over 6 months or a year - but they still die unless they find a different food source), so having a 'mature tank' to keep these animals is not really a help.

The real problem I have with your logic is that every tank has a different micro biome. This is because the micro biome comes from the items put in the tank - it does not spontaneously generate itself or come from the air. Thus an aquarium with fish x,y,z and coral a,b,c from Indonesia will have a different micro biome than an aquarium with fish r,s,t from Florida, etc etc. So if you are going to claim that, for example, one needs a certain 'micro biome' to keep a certain clam even if your aquarium has been running for 5 years there is no way of guaranteeing (based on time alone) that whatever that particular animal requires is in 'your' tank.


Likewise, the micro biome of a bare bottom tank is different than one with a sand bottom, etc. etc.

As I said earlier - it's heretical thinking lol

 

[Ashish Patel]

And yet many people that Frag corals and grow them in frag tanks have no live rock at all in their system. So there must be another reason for the problem you had aside from lack of live rock.

6 months ago I would have agreed with you just because I would use any reason to add SPS after the first 2 months but now that I am on month 7 I can tell you your much more likely to lose SPS in the first few month then after. If your using 100% dry rock I don't care if your juliun sprung you will have issues with SPS regardless of your stables parameters... Monti and stylos are no exceptions they like a slighly dirty tank not a squeeky clean death box. My issues came from tank being too sterile and dosing nitrates to help adjust the problem - this turned to a imbalance nightmare. Prior to adding nitrates I had no lost any SPS so shame on me for doing this.
Everyones tank is different but generally if your looking to add sps make sure to seed with good LR. If your doing Softies and LPS dry rock is fine they will live in toilet water

 

[BrettMallette]

For me a mature tank is when ya havent had to add anything or do anything to remedy things. As stated earlier tank vam survive on its own. For some tanks and reefers thats 6 months to a year. For a others thats never. I find myself falling victim to the constant tank upgrade. So as soon as a tank establishes i tend to change tanks. So my rockwork and coral are mature but my tank itself is not.

 

[MnFish1]

Then you should put eight fish and an anemones a maxima and and a walt Disney in a two month old Dry rock tank and see what happens.

That would be a scientific way to do prove the point.

I've only been reefing for about eight years and I wouldn't do it. It could work I suppose , but it would be expensive and a lot of work imo.

Explain to me - on a scientific basis 'what' would happen in a 'new' aquarium with the correct amount of N cycle bacteria, proper chemistry and filtration and feeding, as compared to putting those items in 2 year old aquarium with the correct amount of N cycle, proper chemistry filtration and feeding.

 

[Ashish Patel]

Some corals can handle a new tank better than others.. Perhaps some corals have a more symbiotic relationship with sponges we don't talk about. Whatever it is i am removing my marinepure and making a cryptic zone designed for fan worms and sponges to fill in.. This compartment will overflow into the sump so when I have to move i'll always have this section in tact. You'll lose alot of sponges when tearing down a tank so you won't find me going through this waiting period again.

 

[Ashish Patel]

I thought I removed this picture -

anyways if you go back to my post on this thread from June you'll see the non-existed growth in 2 month.

 

[MnFish1]

6 months ago I would have agreed with you just because I would use any reason to add SPS after the first 2 months but now that I am on month 7 I can tell you your much more likely to lose SPS in the first few month then after. If your using 100% dry rock I don't care if your juliun sprung you will have issues with SPS regardless of your stables parameters... Monti and stylos are no exceptions they like a slighly dirty tank not a squeeky clean death box. My issues came from tank being too sterile and dosing nitrates to help adjust the problem - this turned to a imbalance nightmare. Prior to adding nitrates I had no lost any SPS so shame on me for doing this.
Everyones tank is different but generally if your looking to add sps make sure to seed with good LR. If your doing Softies and LPS dry rock is fine they will live in toilet water

I have SPS, LPS and some soft corals. I guess you need to define what 'good live rock is'. Rock is by definition dead. What is on the rock that is benefiting the SPS? You said yourself in your post above that you had no deaths until you started adding nitrates - so how does that support the idea that you need 'good live rock' to keep SPS.

How do coral farms that grow and sell thousands of SPS corals do so in tanks with no live rock?

 

[Tuffyyyyy]

Explain to me - on a scientific basis 'what' would happen in a 'new' aquarium with the correct amount of N cycle bacteria, proper chemistry and filtration and feeding, as compared to putting those items in 2 year old aquarium with the correct amount of N cycle, proper chemistry filtration and feeding.

I think I'd agree with what Salty is saying. If you're starting a cycle with dry rock, your tank can be ready to go in just a few days but you'll absolutely have losses if you don't take it slower. I'd say 75% of the people on this board have tried to go too quickly and have had losses because of it.

As for the question: I used to think the answer was anything over 6 months. Having hit the 9 month mark, I'm starting to lean more towards a year. The tank is going through some weird stuff right now.

 

[Amoo]

Then you should put eight fish and an anemones a maxima and and a walt Disney in a two month old Dry rock tank and see what happens.

That would be a scientific way to do prove the point.

I've only been reefing for about eight years and I wouldn't do it. It could work I suppose , but it would be expensive and a lot of work imo.

FWIW you definitely can keep an Anemone in a dry rock/dead sand bacteria cycled tank I also highly recommend others not try some of the other stupid things I do As with anything though, it's about experience. You're still going to get the "maturing tank algae stages" and what not, but unless you really know your Nems, it's basically throwing money down the drain.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

FWIW you definitely can keep an Anemone in a dry rock/dead sand bacteria cycled tank I also highly recommend others not try some of the other stupid things I do As with anything though, it's about experience. You're still going to get the "maturing tank algae stages" and what not, but unless you really know your Nems, it's basically throwing money down the drain.

Lol. I put my first nem in a year old tank. It curled up in a ball and died.
All tests "normal". Fwiw. Live rock and sand when I put it in.
Dunno. That's reefing baby!!

 

[MnFish1]

I think I'd agree with what Salty is saying. If you're starting a cycle with dry rock, your tank can be ready to go in just a few days but you'll absolutely have losses if you don't take it slower. I'd say 75% of the people on this board have tried to go too quickly and have had losses because of it.

I can't argue with what you're saying either - Im not sure there is any disadvantage to going slower.

But scientifically, from a biology standpoint, if you have 2 fish in a new tank and add 2 more in a month - you are going to have the same 'cycle' you had when you added the first 2 fish. Because the bacteria only grow to the point to where they are able to support themselves on the waste, etc in the tank that is being produced - so I'm not sure what you gain by not just supplementing bacteria and adding all 4 fish at the same time.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

This is because the micro biome comes from the items put in the tank - it does not spontaneously generate itself or come from the a

I would say this is part of the maturation process.

 

[Amoo]

Lol. I put my first nem in a year old tank. It curled up in a ball and died.
All tests "normal". Fwiw. Live rock and sand when I put it in.
Dunno. That's reefing baby!!

I said it kind of in jest, but I also have done it, maybe even twice That said, I've also been keeping Anemones for years. Now you give me a nice pretty Acro and I'll usually turn that thing whiter then a ghost in about a week. Sadly though the number of Nem questions I see on a weekly basis in the Nem forum, most all are on tanks less then 6 months old and most are also combined with reefers who have 6 months or less of experience. It really is a recipe for disaster. So for Science yes it can be done, but in reality, unless you can really read your nem's behavior, people just shouldn't try it as 99 times out of 100 it doesn't end well.

 

[Amoo]

I can't argue with what you're saying either - Im not sure there is any disadvantage to going slower.

But scientifically, from a biology standpoint, if you have 2 fish in a new tank and add 2 more in a month - you are going to have the same 'cycle' you had when you added the first 2 fish. Because the bacteria only grow to the point to where they are able to support themselves on the waste, etc in the tank that is being produced - so I'm not sure what you gain by not just supplementing bacteria and adding all 4 fish at the same time.

could be the difference between painful ammonia levels and toxic ammonia levels.

 

[Ashish Patel]

I have SPS, LPS and some soft corals. I guess you need to define what 'good live rock is'. Rock is by definition dead. What is on the rock that is benefiting the SPS? You said yourself in your post above that you had no deaths until you started adding nitrates - so how does that support the idea that you need 'good live rock' to keep SPS.

How do coral farms that grow and sell thousands of SPS corals do so in tanks with no live rock?

Good LR came from a fellow hobbyist tank that had been setup for 15 years covered in sponges, fan worms, and algae. The life in the tank was barren 2 months prior to adding LR. 2 months after adding LR tank is covered in Life forms. All coral farms and wholesalers have large bins with biological media in a remote location and they can hold the corals for a few days and ship them out.. I am sure they have a large % of loses. ..Some algae growth, some detritus buildup, some sponge growth, all off this keeps sps corals alive in the ocean so its required in our tank more so.. I am not saying it take 1-2 years to get your tank setup.. Ideally 6 months but 3-4 months would be a good starting point for 80% of the population.

 

[MnFish1]

Good LR came from a fellow hobbyist tank that had been setup for 15 years covered in sponges, fan worms, and algae. The life in the tank was barren 2 months prior to adding LR. 2 months after adding LR tank is covered in Life forms. All coral farms and wholesalers have large bins with biological media in a remote location and they can hold the corals for a few days and ship them out.. I am sure they have a large % of loses. ..Some algae growth, some detritus buildup, some sponge growth, all off this keeps sps corals alive in the ocean so its required in our tank more so.. I am not saying it take 1-2 years to get your tank setup.. Ideally 6 months but 3-4 months would be a good starting point for 80% of the population.

How do coral farms grow thousands of corals in tanks without sponges or live rock?

 

[MnFish1]

could be the difference between painful ammonia levels and toxic ammonia levels.

Or it could work just fine

 

[Amoo]

How do coral farms grow thousands of corals in tanks without sponges or live rock?

Most coral farms aren't actually growing the coral they're just letting it pass through and many use NSW raceways.

 

[MnFish1]

I said it kind of in jest, but I also have done it, maybe even twice That said, I've also been keeping Anemones for years. Now you give me a nice pretty Acro and I'll usually turn that thing whiter then a ghost in about a week. Sadly though the number of Nem questions I see on a weekly basis in the Nem forum, most all are on tanks less then 6 months old and most are also combined with reefers who have 6 months or less of experience. It really is a recipe for disaster. So for Science yes it can be done, but in reality, unless you can really read your nem's behavior, people just shouldn't try it as 99 times out of 100 it doesn't end well.

That actually was my point at the start. Many of the problems with 'new tanks' are 'new owners'. IMHO the biggest benefit to 'maturation' is the maturation of the experience of the tank owner rather than the 'micro biome'. The 'micro biome' is an ill-defined parameter impossible to quantify, or measure and biologically would be different in every tank so it would be impossible to prove its benefit (or its drawbacks).

I guess to answer the question - a mature tank is one in which the bacteria present are at stable levels as related to the other living creatures therein. Thus, in reality, no tank is ever mature. Corals and fish grow, produce more waste, Animals die produce waste themselves, are removed and then excess bacteria dies, etc. There is always a risk to adding a new living creature to a tank, but the risk is less with every addition.