Possible Fluke Contamination

[Tidalwave]

Hello Reef2Reef!

I'm new to this community, but I'm excited to learn from you all!

Unfortunately, I recently lost some fish to what I believe to be a Fluke outbreak. This occurred in my display tank, even after I had gone through the process of QT'ing each fish before they would become residents in the DT.

As of yesterday, I have removed the remaining fish from the DT, performed a freshwater dip on the fish, and placed them into a smaller tank where I am running PraziPro and observing while the flukes in my DT starve with no fish host.

My question is, besides leaving my DT fishless for 8 or so weeks, is there anything else I need to do or add to eradicate the flukes in my DT? Or will the flukes simply starve in this time period and afterwards the DT be safe for future residents?

Thank you all for your input!

 

[redfishbluefish]

I am certainly no expert, so let's get some eyes on this that are more knowledgeable.... @Humblefish , @melypr1985 , @Brew12 .

I'm not aware of "starving" flukes. However, you can treat the DT with Prazi to kill them in the DT. You will need a second treatment about a week later to kill any hatching eggs.

Now, let's let the pro's comment.


Oh, and I see first post, so welcome to R2R.

 

[Tidalwave]

Thank you for the quick reply!

Interesting! That would make sense to me as well!

The reason I thought I had to leave the tank Fishless was based upon the articles on Reefcentral (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1994597) and Reef2Reef (https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/).

I am still new to the Saltwater scene, so I am trying to learn as much as I possibly can! Thanks again Paul!

 

[dealseer]

Of course going fallow will get rid of flukes.

 

[GHsaltie]

Curious to know what makes you believe its flukes that you are dealing with? When you performed the freshwater dip did you see any flukes come off the fish? @redfishbluefish is correct, you can treat with prazi in the DT, however since you already have them in a QT you might as well continue treatment there. You will want to make sure to do a second dose 5-7 days after the first to kill of any eggs that may have hatched.
Oh and welcome to R2R!

 

[melypr1985]

Going fallow will starve out the flukes without a fish to host... so no worries there. Since all the fish are already out of the display then nothing else is needed to rid your display of parasites.

I agree with GHsaltie.... did you see any flukes come off the fish during the freshwater dip?

 

[4FordFamily]

We're there any other symptoms? I cannot imagine flukes doing serious damage to several fish in such a short time period (perhaps I'm making assumptions).

Any heavy breathing? Swimming in to power heads? Spots? Dusting on body? Scratching? Flashing? Hiding from light? Becoming suddenly cryptic?

Some of those symptoms are common with flukes, others not.

 

[Tidalwave]

Thank you all for your input!

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure it was flukes that caused such a loss. This assumption was based upon a member of ReefCentral who suggested a bacterial infection or flukes. (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2638697)

The full story is based on the loss of my FoxFace:

Background on the FoxFace - I acquired him on 3/28/2017 and he immediately went into my 30 gallon cycled QT tank for observation. A few weeks into the QT period I noticed some small white dots that I thought to be Ich. I initially thought dosing copper was the most practical way to treat Ich (TTM sounded too intimidating), but after I did a little more reading on TTM, on 4/20/2017 I transferred him to a 10 gallon tank and began the TTM process.
Post TTM, he looked great, ate like a pig, and acted appropriately, so on 5/3/2017 I finally transferred him into my 180 gallon display tank.
Residents of the Display tank at this time included 2 clownfish, 2 PJ cardinals, and 1 small RoseTip Bubble Anemone.
The FoxFace adjusted quickly and continued to eat furiously. Everything seemed normal until 5/25/2017, when I woke up to him breathing heavy with gray spots on his cheeks, and around 45 minutes later he was dead. (Attached are the pictures of the first appearance of the gray dots and 45 minutes later when he had died).
5/26/2017 I lost another PJ cardinal, and 5/28/2017 I lost the last PJ cardinal.

Water parameters on 5/25/2017 showed Ammonia - 0, Nitrite - 0, Nitrate - Undetectable, Specific Gravity - 1.020, pH - 7.8, Temp 78.8.

Prior to introducing the clownfish I had kept them in a 30 gallon cube for around 5 months, and prior to introducing the PJ cardinals I had QT'd them for 2 months.

TTM cured the FoxFace of all spots/symptoms, and since the TTM, the FoxFace never displayed any signs of symptoms of Ich or Velvet (which, to my understanding of Velvet, TTM would not be effective).

On 5/25 the only symptom was the heavy breathing on the bottom of the tank. He did not act light sensitive, nor try and stay near the flow of the powerheads as a fish with Velvet might tend to do.

Below is the picture of him on 5/25 when I first saw him, and the pictures of him 45 minutes later after he had passed. I would love to know what you guys think about what could have possibly happened to cause such a loss.

 

[melypr1985]

Here's the thing. You are completely right that TTM doesn't cure velvet.... however, the circumstances here could be a series of unfortunate events. TTM could have slowed down velvet to the point of not seeing any symptoms since you were outrunning some of it every time you transferred. Then being put into the large display allowed the parasite and the fish more room so that it took a while for the parasite to have gained enough population to kill the fish very quickly close together like that.

Now, flukes is an option, but it doesn't usually kill that many fish so close together. A freshwater dip will confirm/rule out flukes as a possibility.

 

[Tidalwave]

That makes sense.

What is interesting, is that the clowns have not produced any symptoms of any disease, although when I removed them from the DT yesterday, I thought I saw a couple of clear circles on one of them that I thought might resemble flukes as I understand them to appear.

To be safe, I am going to treat the tank as if I had a Velvet infestation and leave it fallow for at least 8 weeks, because I would rather wait the 8 weeks and have a safe DT, than to assume that everything is ok and start to lose fish again .

Now for the future, what would be the best way to assure that I am not bringing any diseased fish into my DT? I like using the TTM for Ich prevention, and I've started to acquire medications. Should I prophylactically medicate each fish to assure that they do not have a dormant infection, or would this cause more harm than good? And if that is the case, which medications/QT period would you recommend for complete disease prevention?
Thanks again Melypr1985! I really appreciate your help!

 

[melypr1985]

To be safe, I am going to treat the tank as if I had a Velvet infestation and leave it fallow for at least 8 weeks, because I would rather wait the 8 weeks and have a safe DT, than to assume that everything is ok and start to lose fish again .

Go ahead and treat them for flukes as well. Might as well be thorough.

Now for the future, what would be the best way to assure that I am not bringing any diseased fish into my DT? I like using the TTM for Ich prevention, and I've started to acquire medications. Should I prophylactically medicate each fish to assure that they do not have a dormant infection, or would this cause more harm than good? And if that is the case, which medications/QT period would you recommend for complete disease prevention?

So, I like TTM + Prazipro. It's important to note that a two week observation period is important after TTM. This is because of the very problem I described above. A lot of people are switching back to copper though and treating with prazipro while they are in QT simply because velvet is so common nowadays

 

[Tidalwave]

Ok great!
The clownfish are currently in one of my QT tanks with PraziPro dosed in case it was indeed a fluke outbreak.

I am for sure going to wait the 2 weeks post TTM to make sure there are no residual infections, and PraziPro during the TTM seems to be a great addition! Especially since PraziPro does not sound like it causes the fish harm.
I am a little hesitant to using Copper prophylactically, simply because of the damage that I've read it can cause to the fish's internal organs and whatnot, but if that is what is necessary to eradicate Velvet, I think that I might have to adopt this procedure as well.

In addition to the TTM/PraziPro, followed by Copper and a 2 week observation period, would you recommend using Metro/KanaPlex/Furan-2 to eliminate and possible internal bacterial/parasitic infections?

 

[melypr1985]

In addition to the TTM/PraziPro, followed by Copper and a 2 week observation period, would you recommend using Metro/KanaPlex/Furan-2 to eliminate and possible internal bacterial/parasitic infections?

There's no need to add copper to the tail end of TTM unless you see signs of velvet before or during your observation period.

You don't want to use antibiotics like kanaplex or furan 2 prophylactically. Metro should be held until you see signs of intestinal worms (white stringy poop)

 

[Tidalwave]

Would symptoms of Velvet appear in the 2 weeks following the TTM?

I am all for only only treating what the fish has, but I am just afraid of some disease/infection laying dormant on the fish while in QT and then having it become another outbreak in the DT once transferred. But if fish diseases are anything like human diseases, I would be fearful of antibiotic resistant following such a practice as to prophylactically medicate. :O

So if 2 weeks is sufficient following the TTM to exhibit symptoms of any other diseases/infections that the fish has that would be fantastic!

 

[melypr1985]

Would symptoms of Velvet appear in the 2 weeks following the TTM?

I am all for only only treating what the fish has, but I am just afraid of some disease/infection laying dormant on the fish while in QT and then having it become another outbreak in the DT once transferred. But if fish diseases are anything like human diseases, I would be fearful of antibiotic resistant following such a practice as to prophylactically medicate. :O

So if 2 weeks is sufficient following the TTM to exhibit symptoms of any other diseases/infections that the fish has that would be fantastic!

As long as you are observing every day very closely, then yes. Though that's the reason a lot of people are just using copper instead of going with TTM.

 

[Tidalwave]

Ok, sounds like a great plan! Thanks again for all your time and instruction Melypr1985!

 

[melypr1985]

any time

 

[RT2]

Following. Hope all goes well w QT on others.

 

[Tidalwave]

Thanks RT2! Will update as time goes on! Waiting period will give me plenty of time for reflection and planning!

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree, this sounds like velvet was a factor. There are strains of velvet that do not show as spots or dusting anywhere. Discoloration, heavy breathing, and quick death are what people (myself included for months it was a mystery disease that turned out to be a form of velvet that focused only on he gills out of sight) were experiencing.

The quick deaths and what you describe spell out this to me, and I and a few others have first hand espeirnece with it.

Also, swimming in to powerheads is almost always seen in tangs, although sometimes other fish will do this as well. I cannot think of any other type of fish I've seen doing this over the years, but I know it happens.