Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[MnFish1]

Why would a neurosurgeon lie about using Koch's Postulates? It just doesn’t make sense.

We can clearly see all the cultures he’s done. Maybe not all 500, but why would somebody who’s a Reefer himself lie about his findings? He would know that in time we’ll all find out. It just doesn’t make sense to me personally. That’s why we test things to find out if they’re true.

Either he’s the biggest liar on the planet and a money hungry person or he’s found something that works. Well, time will tell.

The only reason im answering this is because you asked - not to debate. I dont think he's lying.
The problem is there is no way to prove that he used Kochs postulates without knowing the methods he used to do that. (i.e. he might have made an honest mistake). If you read the science on RTN WBD the main issue is separating bacteria from ciliates etc. If you have no way to document how that was done - you can't say that Koch's postulates were achieved.

This is not a slam against Prime Coral - this is just fact. Its extremely difficult to prove kochs postulates in the case of RTN because there are multifactorial causes. Again this is not a criticism of Prime Coral - its just that without knowing how it was done its impossible to analyze whether its correctly done or not - with all due respect to Dr. D.

 

[Reefahholic]

I also don't think he's lying. I said that 20 pages ago. But - I do not think he has done sensitivity testing (at least as its classically described) - I haven't seen that video. And I don't know how you get a pure culture of Philaster. But - as I mentioned previously - that doesn't matter at this point. Ive moved on to the bigger goal - which is stopping RTN (without knowing exactly how its being done).

How often does this product 'cure'/reverse RTN? I wish you could answer some of the other questions - or @Prime Coral can answer them - they are not confrontative or negative - they are common sense questions.

The first time I’ve been able to like your reply. Lol.

You hit the nail on the head. The bigger goal is finding how to stop it.

When I get the products and I’m able to test I’ll answer all questions that I can. However, I may be able to answer some before that time. Like I said...several people testing and as I learn more information I’ll update this thread. My LFS is testing with a tank full of Acro’s.

 

[Reefahholic]

The only reason im answering this is because you asked - not to debate. I dont think he's lying.
The problem is there is no way to prove that he used Kochs postulates without knowing the methods he used to do that. (i.e. he might have made an honest mistake). If you read the science on RTN WBD the main issue is separating bacteria from ciliates etc. If you have no way to document how that was done - you can't say that Koch's postulates were achieved.

This is not a slam against Prime Coral - this is just fact. Its extremely difficult to prove kochs postulates in the case of RTN because there are multifactorial causes. Again this is not a criticism of Prime Coral - its just that without knowing how it was done its impossible to analyze whether its correctly done or not - with all due respect to Dr. D.

I agree, I’d like to know as well. The thread went south early on and before the doctor came here he had already took several blows on FB. So I think he was already frustrated which was why he exited the thread.

Like you, I have many more questions myself. Maybe he’ll come back or answer off of this thread. I don’t know. Either way...if you give it another 4-6 weeks we’ll know a lot more than we do now. The truth always comes out in the end!

 

[Reefahholic]

SO - This may be semantics. But - the key point is not does the product kill Philaster. the point is does it reverse/cure/stop RTN. This seems to be the stumbling point the you don't quite understand people are saying. No offense. There has been a lot of science about whether Philaster is the pathogen or not and what kills it or doesnt. I just want to know - does this product stop RTN - and what are the data.

So I’ve already told you that from what he’s posted in the videos and what he’s stated already that it does do both. Haven’t you watched the videos? He clearly says it’s stopping it and killing them. You can see that after the dips they’re clearly gone. How would you get them off the coral if it wasn’t working?

My problems with the videos is that they aren’t done over a period of time with the same corals showing that they were once RTNing and that they did indeed recover.

I know from having a YouTube channel that it’s a lot of work trying to document things on video. Maybe in the future he can do that for us.

 

[jda]

This particular person has under dosed his tank by 10%.

It can kill fish, because it can deplete oxygen in the water column just like NO3-PO4X.

Psxerholic treated (I think full dose) and only lost one fish. I’ll have to get back on that. I’ll ask him.

This makes no sense to me. If it depleted oxygen, then more than fish would die like ornamental inverts. Is this treatment going to be offered as a success or failure since the directions were not followed with either the dosage or approach?

Sounds like the issue is that the gills cannot function which is why only fish would be harmed, and not all inverts if o2 depletion was an issue. From page 11:

The in tank treatment affects fishes ability to have gas exchange across their gills

 

[Demonic]

It’s kinda like these UFC fighters...what do you think happens after they make a few million??

Most quit or stop fighting. They dictate who they will fight and when or if they will fight. It’s just the way the world works and sometimes it’s unfair.

If you're comparing this to UFC fighters then this would be more like a UFC going to the weigh in, then talking a bunch of trash, then not showing up to the fight. Tell me a fighter that does this....

 

[jda]

It is time to kill this thread. If we cannot separate the product from the science, then neither are going to get anywhere.

So far, all that we have is one experience with the product and it was a failure.

 

[Demonic]

It’s amusing to me how 3-4 people have been bashing this thread from the beginning. It’s clear they aren’t looking for answers.

That is why I haven’t been responding much. It’s pointless. If we’re not going to work together and be civil, then we’re wasting our time. I want to talk about the important details without all the personal attacks or certain people disrespecting others here.



ts

You have been defending this product from the beginning but havent even tried it. Why are you promoting this product but none of the other research over the years about this problem. A lot of which has been linked here in this thread.

What is your agenda??

 

[Reefahholic]

It is time to kill this thread. If we cannot separate the product from the science, then neither are going to get anywhere.

So far, all that we have is one experience with the product and it was a failure.

Like who? Can you tell them to post up with their experiences?

 

[Demonic]

Like who? Can you tell them to post up with their experiences?

Psxerholic (Andre M) said in his thread that it didn't kill them. Black and white

 

[Reefahholic]

You have been defending this product from the beginning but havent even tried it. Why are you promoting this product but none of the other research over the years about this problem. A lot of which has been linked here in this thread.

What is your agenda??

No agenda bro. I just think he’s found something that works. That’s it!

 

[Reefahholic]

Psxerholic (Andre M) said in his thread that it didn't kill them. Black and white

He just got the products. It’s a little early to say for sure. He and I live in the same city. I know exactly what’s going on with Andre’s tank.

He never said it didn’t work. He said he discontinued the treatment for now and would fill us in later about it.

 

[MnFish1]

Why would a neurosurgeon lie about using Koch's Postulates? It just doesn’t make sense.

We can clearly see all the cultures he’s done. Maybe not all 500, but why would somebody who’s a Reefer himself lie about his findings? He would know that in time we’ll all find out. It just doesn’t make sense to me personally. That’s why we test things to find out if they’re true.

Either he’s the biggest liar on the planet and a money hungry person or he’s found something that works. Well, time will tell.

Why would Linus Pauling insist that high dose vitamin C cures the common cold? Its not all about some malicious intent - sometimes people are wrong - sometimes they are right. You seem to want to say that everyone that questions this method thinks there is some fraud - I'm giving the benefit of the doubt. That said - more evidence would be helpful

 

[MnFish1]

So I’ve already told you that from what he’s posted in the videos and what he’s stated already that it does do both. Haven’t you watched the videos? He clearly says it’s stopping it and killing them. You can see that after the dips they’re clearly gone. How would you get them off the coral if it wasn’t working?

My problems with the videos is that they aren’t done over a period of time with the same corals showing that they were once RTNing and that they did indeed recover.

I know from having a YouTube channel that it’s a lot of work trying to document things on video. Maybe in the future he can do that for us.

That was the question - I have no doubt that whatever is being put in the water kills ciliates. What I havent seen is does it stop RTN. Thats my key point. I dont care if its Philaster, vibrio or an act of god...

 

[Demonic]

He just got the products. It’s a little early to say for sure. He and I live in the same city. I know exactly what’s going on with Andre’s tank.

He never said it didn’t work. He said he discontinued the treatment for now and would fill us in later about it.

 

[Demonic]

That is copied from his FB

 

[Reefahholic]

Why would Linus Pauling insist that high dose vitamin C cures the common cold? Its not all about some malicious intent - sometimes people are wrong - sometimes they are right. You seem to want to say that everyone that questions this method thinks there is some fraud - I'm giving the benefit of the doubt. That said - more evidence would be helpful

I think more evidence would be great.

 

[MnFish1]

Psxerholic (Andre M) said in his thread that it didn't kill them. Black and white

I think another poster also said it didn't work - but im too lazy due to a water problem to go back an find it. I may be wrong

 

[MnFish1]

This

 

[Demonic]

I think another poster also said it didn't work - but im too lazy due to a water problem to go back an find it. I may be wrong

You are correct and I have found about 5 online that said they have seen no change. Maybe I will go back and find them