Post cycle Nitrate removal

The simple fact that this material is "regenerated" in sodium chloride solutions makes it laughable to think it will work in seawater, which is mostly sodium chloride.

FWIW, Brightwell has a poor record in understanding how its products might or might not work.
 
I do not believe it is going to work they way they claim.
It definitely worked at reducing nitrates for me when I was using it in my 29gallon but I'm not going to certify whether it reduces the 20ppm per 500mL of product per 100gallon as claimed. I too questioned the regenerating capacity as well but it seems to have some capacity for regeneration as it did help me maintain lower nitrates from heavy feeding before I started carbon dosing, which is much cheaper than maintaining the resin.
 
It definitely worked at reducing nitrates for me when I was using it in my 29gallon but I'm not going to certify whether it reduces the 20ppm per 500mL of product per 100gallon as claimed. I too questioned the regenerating capacity as well but it seems to have some capacity for regeneration as it did help me maintain lower nitrates from heavy feeding before I started carbon dosing, which is much cheaper than maintaining the resin.

I suspect it may have worked the way Purigen does, by binding organics before they degrade to nitrate, so nitrate appears to decline without actually binding nitrate.
 
I suspect it may have worked the way Purigen does, by binding organics before they degrade to nitrate, so nitrate appears to decline without actually binding nitrate.
This is a good point, it definitely looks like purigen and "bind" may not be the right term. Of course it's "proprietary" so I have no idea of what type of anion resin it could possibly be. Just thought it may be cheaper/easier to tryout than changing a few dozen gallons of water.
 
Cycling dry rock is such a joy. I agree with RHF, most likely high nitrites. I would also like to add that when it's done cycling adding cheato or ATS is good options to reduce excess nutrients but I would stop there. Don't add GFO or bio-pellets or any bio media to reduce nitrates. Let the tank mature without intervention. I would hate to see this tank in the dinoflagellate threads, 6 months down the road.
 
Just for fun, let's explore how implausible are the claims of Brightwell for Nitratr :D

The nature of this implausibility is that seawater is mostly sodium chloride and yet they claim it can be regenerated in sodium chloride solutions. It says nothing about the ability to work in freshwater (where the scientific literature supports the ability to bind nitrate).

http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/nitratrt.php

"To initially lower excessive nitrate, each 500ml of NitratR will remove 20ppm nitrate in 100 US-gallons of water (or 10ppm per 200 US-gallons)"

OK, so that claim suggests that the 500 mL of NitratR is binding 20 ppm (mg/L) out of 100 gallons (378.5 liters), or 20 mg/L x 378.5 L = 7,570 mg or 7.6 grams of nitrate.

Sounds great so far!

They them claim that:
"To regenerate: Dissolve 4 cups table salt in 1 US-gallon of room-temperature water per 250-ml NitratR to be regenerated in a clean pail; place resin into pail and stir; allow beads to soak overnight; strain and rinse beads thoroughly in fresh water before re-using. "

OK, let's think it through. That 250 mL of polymer has 3.8 grams of nitrate on it (since Brightwell says 500 ml can bind 7.6 grams of nitrate). The more effective it is at binding nitrate relative to the competing ion, chloride, the more nitrate will remain bound in the regeneration solution. Let's take the case that regeneration means you get back 50% of the original capacity. Any less is, IMO, stretching the definition of being able to "regenerate" hundreds of times, and any more retained will make their product look even poorer in the analysis that follows.

So, that regeneration solution contains 4 cups of table salt. Four cups of sodium chloride weighs about 1170 grams of sodium chloride, and hence 710 grams of chloride.

If we think the regeneration is 50% complete, that means that the solution then contains half of the nitrate originally bound to the polymer, or half of 3.8 grams or 1.9 grams of nitrate (with 1.9 grams remaining on the polymer).

Since nitrate was coming off of the polymer, and chloride going on, and the process stopped at 1.9 grams of nitrate in the solution which also contains 710 grams of chloride (actually 709 g since 1 gram went onto the polymer), then the binding of nitrate stopped when the chloride to nitrate ratio in the regeneration solution was 709/1.9 = 373.

NOTE: This result means that nitrate is coming off the polymer, not on, when the level of the chloride in solution is higher than 373 times the nitrate concentration.

In seawater, the chloride concentration is about 19,000 ppm. This analysis would suggest that at any nitrate concentration below 1/373 times this level, or 51 ppm, nitrate would come off the polymer, not bind to it.

If we had assumed the regeneration procedure was even more effective (lets say 90%), then the numbers change so that the nitrate in solution at equilibrium is 3.42 grams and the chloride is about 708 g., so at any chloride to nitrate ratio above 708/3.42 = 207, nitrate is coming off rather than binding. This means that at nitrate concentrations below 19,000/207 = 92 ppm, no nitrate is binding.

Of course, we could keep pushing down on the actual ability to regenerate the polymer as claimed. Suppose only 10% is able to be regenerated in the method they claim (really not meeting the criteria for regeneration, IMO, but let's explore it). At 10% released, the nitrate in the regeneration fluid is 0.38 grams, and chloride is 710 grams, for a ratio of 710/0.38 = 1868. Thus, at any nitrate concentration below 19,000 ppm/1868 = 10 ppm, none will be binding.

Thus I conclude, as we already know from other basis, such as the scientific literature of the relative binding affinity of "nitrate specific resins" relative to chloride, that the claims of Brightwell do not survive a simplistic analysis.
 
Last edited:
Just for fun, let's explore how implausible are the claims of Brightwell for Nitratr :D

The nature of this implausibility is that seawater is mostly sodium chloride and yet they claim it can be regenerated in sodium chloride solutions. It says nothing about the ability to work in freshwater (where the scientific literature supports the ability to bind nitrate).

http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/nitratrt.php

"To initially lower excessive nitrate, each 500ml of NitratR will remove 20ppm nitrate in 100 US-gallons of water (or 10ppm per 200 US-gallons)"

OK, so that claim suggests that the 500 mL of NitratR is binding 20 ppm (mg/L) out of 100 gallons (378.5 liters), or 20 mg/L x 378.5 L = 7,570 mg or 7.6 grams of nitrate.

Sounds great so far!

They them claim that:
"To regenerate: Dissolve 4 cups table salt in 1 US-gallon of room-temperature water per 250-ml NitratR to be regenerated in a clean pail; place resin into pail and stir; allow beads to soak overnight; strain and rinse beads thoroughly in fresh water before re-using. "

OK, let's think it through. That 250 mL of polymer has 3.8 grams of nitrate on it (since Brightwell says 500 ml can bind 7.6 grams of nitrate). The more effective it is at binding nitrate relative to the competing ion, chloride, the more nitrate will remain bound in the regeneration solution. Let's take the case that regeneration means you get back 50% of the original capacity. Any less is, IMO, stretching the definition of being able to "regenerate" hundreds of times, and any more retained will make their product look even poorer in the analysis that follows.

So, that regeneration solution contains 4 cups of table salt. Four cups of sodium chloride weighs about 1170 grams of sodium chloride, and hence 710 grams of chloride.

If we think the regeneration is 50% complete, that means that the solution then contains half of the nitrate originally bound to the polymer, or half of 3.8 grams or 1.9 grams of nitrate (with 1.9 grams remaining on the polymer).

Since nitrate was coming off of the polymer, and chloride going on, and the process stopped at 1.9 grams of nitrate in the solution which also contains 710 grams of chloride (actually 709 g since 1 gram went onto the polymer), then the binding of nitrate stopped when the chloride to nitrate ratio in the regeneration solution was 709/1.9 = 373.

NOTE: This result means that nitrate is coming off the polymer, not on, when the level of the chloride in solution is higher than 373 times the nitrate concentration.

In seawater, the chloride concentration is about 19,000 ppm. This analysis would suggest that at any nitrate concentration below 1/373 times this level, or 51 ppm, nitrate would come off the polymer, not bind to it.

If we had assumed the regeneration procedure was even more effective (lets say 90%), then the numbers change so that the nitrate in solution at equilibrium is 3.42 grams and the chloride is about 708 g., so at any chloride to nitrate ratio above 708/3.42 = 207, nitrate is coming off rather than binding. This means that at nitrate concentrations below 19,000/207 = 92 ppm, no nitrate is binding.

Of course, we could keep pushing down on the actual ability to regenerate the polymer as claimed. Suppose only 10% is able to be regenerated in the method they claim (really not meeting the criteria for regeneration, IMO, but let's explore it). At 10% released, the nitrate in the regeneration fluid is 0.38 grams, and chloride is 710 grams, for a ratio of 710/0.38 = 1868. Thus, at any nitrate concentration below 19,000 ppm/1868 = 10 ppm, none will be binding.

Thus I conclude, as we already know from other basis, such as the scientific literature of the relative binding affinity of "nitrate specific resins" relative to chloride, that the claims of Brightwell do not survive a simplistic analysis.
I love science!!!

Thank you for the explanation!
 
Ok, so Ammonia is down to 0.8 tonight. Nitrites are, well, off the chart.

So, as far as adding more ammonium chloride should I just stop it until the Nitrites go to zero? Don't really care about time just trying to do the whole dry rock cycle thing correctly. If and when I do add it again I will be sure to not bring it up so high! Thanks for that clarification. lol

I will wait until Nitrites are at zero before testing Nitrates again. This saves test kit stuff and my time so who could argue that logic?


And I agree, I do not want to be in a dino-fighting thread.
 
Ok, so Ammonia is down to 0.8 tonight. Nitrites are, well, off the chart.

So, as far as adding more ammonium chloride should I just stop it until the Nitrites go to zero? Don't really care about time just trying to do the whole dry rock cycle thing correctly. If and when I do add it again I will be sure to not bring it up so high! Thanks for that clarification. lol

I will wait until Nitrites are at zero before testing Nitrates again. This saves test kit stuff and my time so who could argue that logic?


And I agree, I do not want to be in a dino-fighting thread.
I would wait for ammonia to go to 0ppm (or 0.25ppm if using API) then dose back up to 1ppm. If it drops from 1ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours I feel you are safe to add a CuC and fish.
 
I would wait for ammonia to go to 0ppm (or 0.25ppm if using API) then dose back up to 1ppm. If it drops from 1ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours I feel you are safe to add a CuC and fish.

But also get Nitrites to zero as well, right?
 
Just for fun, let's explore how implausible are the claims of Brightwell for Nitratr :D

The nature of this implausibility is that seawater is mostly sodium chloride and yet they claim it can be regenerated in sodium chloride solutions. It says nothing about the ability to work in freshwater (where the scientific literature supports the ability to bind nitrate).

http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/nitratrt.php

"To initially lower excessive nitrate, each 500ml of NitratR will remove 20ppm nitrate in 100 US-gallons of water (or 10ppm per 200 US-gallons)"

OK, so that claim suggests that the 500 mL of NitratR is binding 20 ppm (mg/L) out of 100 gallons (378.5 liters), or 20 mg/L x 378.5 L = 7,570 mg or 7.6 grams of nitrate.

Sounds great so far!

They them claim that:
"To regenerate: Dissolve 4 cups table salt in 1 US-gallon of room-temperature water per 250-ml NitratR to be regenerated in a clean pail; place resin into pail and stir; allow beads to soak overnight; strain and rinse beads thoroughly in fresh water before re-using. "

OK, let's think it through. That 250 mL of polymer has 3.8 grams of nitrate on it (since Brightwell says 500 ml can bind 7.6 grams of nitrate). The more effective it is at binding nitrate relative to the competing ion, chloride, the more nitrate will remain bound in the regeneration solution. Let's take the case that regeneration means you get back 50% of the original capacity. Any less is, IMO, stretching the definition of being able to "regenerate" hundreds of times, and any more retained will make their product look even poorer in the analysis that follows.

So, that regeneration solution contains 4 cups of table salt. Four cups of sodium chloride weighs about 1170 grams of sodium chloride, and hence 710 grams of chloride.

If we think the regeneration is 50% complete, that means that the solution then contains half of the nitrate originally bound to the polymer, or half of 3.8 grams or 1.9 grams of nitrate (with 1.9 grams remaining on the polymer).

Since nitrate was coming off of the polymer, and chloride going on, and the process stopped at 1.9 grams of nitrate in the solution which also contains 710 grams of chloride (actually 709 g since 1 gram went onto the polymer), then the binding of nitrate stopped when the chloride to nitrate ratio in the regeneration solution was 709/1.9 = 373.

NOTE: This result means that nitrate is coming off the polymer, not on, when the level of the chloride in solution is higher than 373 times the nitrate concentration.

In seawater, the chloride concentration is about 19,000 ppm. This analysis would suggest that at any nitrate concentration below 1/373 times this level, or 51 ppm, nitrate would come off the polymer, not bind to it.

If we had assumed the regeneration procedure was even more effective (lets say 90%), then the numbers change so that the nitrate in solution at equilibrium is 3.42 grams and the chloride is about 708 g., so at any chloride to nitrate ratio above 708/3.42 = 207, nitrate is coming off rather than binding. This means that at nitrate concentrations below 19,000/207 = 92 ppm, no nitrate is binding.

Of course, we could keep pushing down on the actual ability to regenerate the polymer as claimed. Suppose only 10% is able to be regenerated in the method they claim (really not meeting the criteria for regeneration, IMO, but let's explore it). At 10% released, the nitrate in the regeneration fluid is 0.38 grams, and chloride is 710 grams, for a ratio of 710/0.38 = 1868. Thus, at any nitrate concentration below 19,000 ppm/1868 = 10 ppm, none will be binding.

Thus I conclude, as we already know from other basis, such as the scientific literature of the relative binding affinity of "nitrate specific resins" relative to chloride, that the claims of Brightwell do not survive a simplistic analysis.
I did a little research on this only because I don't believe Brightwell would be making such a blatant false statements of facts. There does exist a Type 2 strong base anion resin that is selective for ions in the order of: SO4>NO3>Cl>Bicarbonate. It has regeneration capacity at NaCl concentrations of at least 100grams/liter (well above our saltwater tanks) so I do believe that the resin does work and is regenerable. There is also a company that has further developed the resin to be more selective for nitrate over sulfate.
 
Last edited:
Just for fun, let's explore how implausible are the claims of Brightwell for Nitratr :D

The nature of this implausibility is that seawater is mostly sodium chloride and yet they claim it can be regenerated in sodium chloride solutions. It says nothing about the ability to work in freshwater (where the scientific literature supports the ability to bind nitrate).

http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/nitratrt.php

"To initially lower excessive nitrate, each 500ml of NitratR will remove 20ppm nitrate in 100 US-gallons of water (or 10ppm per 200 US-gallons)"

OK, so that claim suggests that the 500 mL of NitratR is binding 20 ppm (mg/L) out of 100 gallons (378.5 liters), or 20 mg/L x 378.5 L = 7,570 mg or 7.6 grams of nitrate.

Sounds great so far!

They them claim that:
"To regenerate: Dissolve 4 cups table salt in 1 US-gallon of room-temperature water per 250-ml NitratR to be regenerated in a clean pail; place resin into pail and stir; allow beads to soak overnight; strain and rinse beads thoroughly in fresh water before re-using. "

OK, let's think it through. That 250 mL of polymer has 3.8 grams of nitrate on it (since Brightwell says 500 ml can bind 7.6 grams of nitrate). The more effective it is at binding nitrate relative to the competing ion, chloride, the more nitrate will remain bound in the regeneration solution. Let's take the case that regeneration means you get back 50% of the original capacity. Any less is, IMO, stretching the definition of being able to "regenerate" hundreds of times, and any more retained will make their product look even poorer in the analysis that follows.

So, that regeneration solution contains 4 cups of table salt. Four cups of sodium chloride weighs about 1170 grams of sodium chloride, and hence 710 grams of chloride.

If we think the regeneration is 50% complete, that means that the solution then contains half of the nitrate originally bound to the polymer, or half of 3.8 grams or 1.9 grams of nitrate (with 1.9 grams remaining on the polymer).

Since nitrate was coming off of the polymer, and chloride going on, and the process stopped at 1.9 grams of nitrate in the solution which also contains 710 grams of chloride (actually 709 g since 1 gram went onto the polymer), then the binding of nitrate stopped when the chloride to nitrate ratio in the regeneration solution was 709/1.9 = 373.

NOTE: This result means that nitrate is coming off the polymer, not on, when the level of the chloride in solution is higher than 373 times the nitrate concentration.

In seawater, the chloride concentration is about 19,000 ppm. This analysis would suggest that at any nitrate concentration below 1/373 times this level, or 51 ppm, nitrate would come off the polymer, not bind to it.

If we had assumed the regeneration procedure was even more effective (lets say 90%), then the numbers change so that the nitrate in solution at equilibrium is 3.42 grams and the chloride is about 708 g., so at any chloride to nitrate ratio above 708/3.42 = 207, nitrate is coming off rather than binding. This means that at nitrate concentrations below 19,000/207 = 92 ppm, no nitrate is binding.

Of course, we could keep pushing down on the actual ability to regenerate the polymer as claimed. Suppose only 10% is able to be regenerated in the method they claim (really not meeting the criteria for regeneration, IMO, but let's explore it). At 10% released, the nitrate in the regeneration fluid is 0.38 grams, and chloride is 710 grams, for a ratio of 710/0.38 = 1868. Thus, at any nitrate concentration below 19,000 ppm/1868 = 10 ppm, none will be binding.

Thus I conclude, as we already know from other basis, such as the scientific literature of the relative binding affinity of "nitrate specific resins" relative to chloride, that the claims of Brightwell do not survive a simplistic analysis.
I realized I should have also acknowledged your math a little more but if the chloride will not swap with the nitrate in the resin unless NaCl concentrations are at minimum 100g/L then would that not change the premise of your nitrate ppm ratios? From my understanding of this Type 2 resin, it is highly selective for sulfate and nitrate and will freely swap chloride out of the resin in exchange for nitrate and sulfate in freshwater and marine environments (because NaCl concentration are not at the minimum). So with this required minimum 10% brine solution, would this mean that after regeneration and the nitrate has been replaced with chloride, once placed back into the seawater it would dump all the chloride in exchange for sulfate/nitrate because the resin is more reactive with those ions?
 
But also get Nitrites to zero as well, right?
Randy's article here is a good read:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

I'd stop with the ammonia. It's been shown on a few threads around here that, once established, the ammonia reducing bacteria don't need to be constantly fed to remain effective over a long period of time. Adding more just increases your workload to remove nitrates later on.

Do check your phosphates though...you are fighting an uphill battle with carbon dosing or Chaeto if your nutrients aren't balanced. In my case, phosphates get sucked up immediately and without input (overfeeding, phosphate dosing) remain near 0 on the Hanna ULR checker. Raising phosphates is helping regain balance.
 
Read the article linked above. Very informative. My ammonia level is back to near zero again. I will stop the dosing and observe for a few days and then think about adding the cleanup crew. Sound reasonable?

For what it's worth I am using a seneye for constant monitoring of ammonia and backing that up with the red Sea test kit.
 
Read the article linked above. Very informative. My ammonia level is back to near zero again. I will stop the dosing and observe for a few days and then think about adding the cleanup crew. Sound reasonable?

For what it's worth I am using a seneye for constant monitoring of ammonia and backing that up with the red Sea test kit.

I used the Seneye as well, although I found it would never zero out NH3. It would peg at 0.014 and never move from there. So I had to put a trim bias in if I wanted it to read accurately. Returned that one and got another with a new slide and it had the same issue (although it pegged at 0.016). I'm a geek and enjoyed the immediate and constant feedback it provided though. Now that the cycle is done, I don't use it anymore...just a nice PAR meter.

I've not added any algae eating CUC yet (+ 1 month after the cycle) because I have very little algae growing for them to eat. I did add some detrivores like a few small brittle stars and pods to seed everything and add some diversity. I will only add more CUC when I need them, since I don't see the point of needing to target feed a CUC (unless you like them)...kind of like putting dirt on your carpet so you can use your vacuum cleaner.

Having done this old school a few times before with "real" live rock, I find I miss the diversity found with them. The advantage of dry rock is that only what you put in is present. The disadvantage is that, well, only what you put in is present. I enjoyed getting the flashlight out and going "exploring" for critters...not so thus far with this one.
 
I did a little research on this only because I don't believe Brightwell would be making such a blatant false statements of facts. There does exist a Type 2 strong base anion resin that is selective for ions in the order of: SO4>NO3>Cl>Bicarbonate. It has regeneration capacity at NaCl concentrations of at least 100grams/liter (well above our saltwater tanks) so I do believe that the resin does work and is regenerable. There is also a company that has further developed the resin to be more selective for nitrate over sulfate.

FWIW, Brightwell has and continues to make blatantly misleading statements. I got Jack Kent to change one of them (impossible claims for the potency of their magnesium additive) when he took over the company.

But some incorrect claims, like kalk+2 supplying magnesium remain.

Yes, there most definitely are resins with improved specificity for certain ions. I co-invented one for phosphate that sells more than a billion dollars worth each year, so I am very familiar with this field. But none can compete with the vastly higher chloride and sulfate in trying to bind nitrate from seawater.
 
The seneye that I have has gone down to 0.003 after the first initial cycle dose and right now is down to 0.005. I bought it for the PAR meter functionality based on the test results from BRS. The fact that it has a temp, pH and ammonia tester is just a bonus add for when it's handy to use it. It's been very nice to have for the cycle since I don't have to bother with chemical testing until I see indications on the seneye decide that tells me it's time to look.

Good advice in the cuc. I will also only add a few at a time depending in the availability of the food source. I see no reason to dump in 100 turbo snails just because..

I also have my first fish, pajama cardinals in QT. They are in week two and are looking great. Swimming strong and eating very well.
 
Even ignoring the competition from sulfate, to bind nitrate at 10 ppm from seawater with 19000 ppm chloride, you need selectivity for nitrate over chloride to exceed 2000. If you find anything close, I will retract my claim of such a thing not existing. Values for specificity that I have seen in the scientific literature are less than 25. Good to remove nitrate from fresh water, but not seawater.
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
Back
Top