Post cycle Nitrate removal

But also get Nitrites to zero as well, right?
I realize this was answered, but if you want more information on why nitrites aren't a huge problem in marine fish you can read this. It explains how the chlorides in salt water block the nitrites from being absorbed by the fish.

http://vri.cz/docs/vetmed/50-11-461.pdf

The only reason I ever bother testing for nitrites is to evaluate the accuracy of my nitrate tests. If you have nitrites in your system it will cause your nitrate tests to read higher than actual.
 
I realized I should have also acknowledged your math a little more but if the chloride will not swap with the nitrate in the resin unless NaCl concentrations are at minimum 100g/L then would that not change the premise of your nitrate ppm ratios? From my understanding of this Type 2 resin, it is highly selective for sulfate and nitrate and will freely swap chloride out of the resin in exchange for nitrate and sulfate in freshwater and marine environments (because NaCl concentration are not at the minimum). So with this required minimum 10% brine solution, would this mean that after regeneration and the nitrate has been replaced with chloride, once placed back into the seawater it would dump all the chloride in exchange for sulfate/nitrate because the resin is more reactive with those ions?

Ion exchange resins do not work on the basis of the absolute concentrations of the ions that can bind. It is only the ratio of the ions that matters, at least as a first approximation to a somewhat complicated process.

If a polymer cannot hold nitrate when there is a thousand times more chloride, then it doesn’t matter much what the absolute concentrations are.

If a “highly selective” resin can bind nitrate 20 times more effectively than chloride, then it is useless in seawater with a thousand times as much chloride and hundreds of times as much sulfate,
 
I realize this was answered, but if you want more information on why nitrites aren't a huge problem in marine fish you can read this. It explains how the chlorides in salt water block the nitrites from being absorbed by the fish.

http://vri.cz/docs/vetmed/50-11-461.pdf

The only reason I ever bother testing for nitrites is to evaluate the accuracy of my nitrate tests. If you have nitrites in your system it will cause your nitrate tests to read higher than actual.

Excellent, I will read that one as well. I did read the other linked article on nitrites and the impact on marine fish. Very informative. My last salt water tank was about nine years ago. So much has changed in my understanding if how it all works. It's actually much easier now.

So plan going forward from today is to stop the dosing off ammonium chloride since the tank took care of the last dose very quickly considering how much I spiked it.

Will monitor nitrites just to get to the point where they also drop to zero and start looking for a few clean up crew animals to add.

Any suggestions here on which ones will provide the most benefit and qty?

Also will test phosphates tonight and start thinking about when to start the refugium up. Right now everything is there, tank, water flow, lighting etc just no chaeto yet.
 
Excellent, I will read that one as well. I did read the other linked article on nitrites and the impact on marine fish. Very informative. My last salt water tank was about nine years ago. So much has changed in my understanding if how it all works. It's actually much easier now.

So plan going forward from today is to stop the dosing off ammonium chloride since the tank took care of the last dose very quickly considering how much I spiked it.

Will monitor nitrites just to get to the point where they also drop to zero and start looking for a few clean up crew animals to add.

Any suggestions here on which ones will provide the most benefit and qty?

Also will test phosphates tonight and start thinking about when to start the refugium up. Right now everything is there, tank, water flow, lighting etc just no chaeto yet.
I'm a fan of the snail only CuC's from this vendor although there are plenty of other good ones.
https://www.reefcleaners.org/

If you are willing to feed your tank sinking pellets and frozen meaty foods I would add enough for around 1/3 of your tank volume based on the recommendations. If you have a lot of rock I might add more, if your display is mostly open I would add less.

Personally, I like hermit crabs. I recommend the snail only package from reef cleaners only because I would prefer to pick out the exact hermits I want. Many people feel crabs have no place in a reef tank.
 
I think that your long term solution is a fully functioning refuge with cheato or other type algae but in the short term you need to do water changes or you going to have algae issues in your display tank
 
I think that your long term solution is a fully functioning refuge with cheato or other type algae but in the short term you need to do water changes or you going to have algae issues in your display tank

Yes, the tank is setup with a full 29g tank just for refugium. There is another 40g tank hooked to it for the remainder of the sump stuff. This is to confirm to the Triton method standards. So, yes, ling term there will be plenty of refugium action going on.

I also have a large RODI system in the house to provide the water for the early stage water changes.
 
I'm not much into the Cerith's you get with the reefcleaners crew. They tended to get into my overflow and areas I didn't want. And if you have hermits, will likely become crab food. Reefcleaners is a great organization, but I agree you'd only want 1/3-1/4 of what they would normally send at most and that's if you already have an issue. If not, I'd wait until something is needed and even then, start out slowly with one or 2 larger members of a crew. If they aren't cutting it, add one or 2 more. Adding a bunch will likely add to your nutrient problem through attrition even on a problem tank once they've mowed through the algae.

Zebra Turbos are good overall for algae control. I also like Trochus. Astrae's can't right themselves but are pretty good. Margaritas are generally cold water snails and don't last long. Tuxedo urchins eat a lot and are interesting, but also eat corraline. I've had a Money Cowrie that was very effective and a cool animal.

Not much into hermits.

Nassarius are good detrivores (don't eat algae) and will stir the sand a little...call them zombie snails since they emerge from the sand when you feed.
 
I did a little research on this only because I don't believe Brightwell would be making such a blatant false statements of facts.

Believe it. Maybe it's time to become more cynical about hobby companies unless they can provide some sort of justification of unexpectedly good claims.

Let's try this current problem with the "facts", which came up just now in another thread from someone confused about the product.

I point out to Jack Kent that his Magnesion P product had false claims. I did that more than 2 years ago!!!! (when he had just acquired the company from his, I think, son-in-law, Chris Brightwell)

They fixed their web site, but still have resellers showing the false claims:

http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/magnesionpt.php

Ingredients
Magnesium sulfate (anhydrous), Magnesium chloride (anhydrous)
Guaranteed Analysis
Magnesium (min) 24% (240,000 ppm)

But not their advertising at resellers:

https://www.marinedepot.com/Brightw...-Brightwell_Aquatics-BW01118-FIADMIDA-vi.html

Guaranteed Analysis (by weight)
Magnesium (min) 43% (430,000 ppm)
Ingredients
Magnesium sulfate (anhydrous), Magnesium chloride (anhydrous)
 
Believe it. Maybe it's time to become more cynical about hobby companies unless they can provide some sort of justification of unexpectedly good claims.

Let's try this current problem with the "facts", which came up just now in another thread from someone confused about the product.

I point out to Jack Kent that his Magnesion P product had false claims. I did that more than 2 years ago!!!! (when he had just acquired the company from his, I think, son-in-law, Chris Brightwell)

They fixed their web site, but still have resellers showing the false claims:

http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/magnesionpt.php

Ingredients
Magnesium sulfate (anhydrous), Magnesium chloride (anhydrous)
Guaranteed Analysis
Magnesium (min) 24% (240,000 ppm)

But not their advertising at resellers:

https://www.marinedepot.com/Brightw...-Brightwell_Aquatics-BW01118-FIADMIDA-vi.html

Guaranteed Analysis (by weight)
Magnesium (min) 43% (430,000 ppm)
Ingredients
Magnesium sulfate (anhydrous), Magnesium chloride (anhydrous)
That's pretty terrible business practices then and probably in violation of business law because of the way they are presenting the guarantee. I'm not quick to accept any claim by a company but I do at the least expect a guarantee to be as stated because this is different than just saying some general thing like "our products are more concentrated than the rest". Seeing something like this makes me not even want to support their business, despite always having good results with their supplements/media. I appreciate you bringing this to peoples attention.
 
So I checked my Ammonia, Nitrites and Phosphates when I got home and here is where I stand.

Ammonia - o on red sea kit and 0.001 on the seneye
Nitrite - Over 1, Crimson red in color.
Phosphate - 0.43, this is with the Hanna ULR Phosphorous checker. The actual reading was 141, then multiplied that bu 3.067 and then divided by 1000 to get ppm.

Looks like I could feed an army of Chaeto with that much phosphate.
 
That's pretty terrible business practices then and probably in violation of business law because of the way they are presenting the guarantee. I'm not quick to accept any claim by a company but I do at the least expect a guarantee to be as stated because this is different than just saying some general thing like "our products are more concentrated than the rest". Seeing something like this makes me not even want to support their business, despite always having good results with their supplements/media. I appreciate you bringing this to peoples attention.

The guarantee was part of my message to Jack, and he took it well and agreed to change it. But the change never propagated into other places they advertise.

I think it was probably initially done through chemical misunderstanding. I suspect they took the magnesium content in anhydrous magnesium chloride (25.5% magnesium) and in anhydrous magnesium sulfate (20.2% magnesium ) and added them together to get 43% magnesium . Obviously, that isn't the correct way to mix things, and there is just no combination of these ingredients that can have more than 25.5% magnesium.
 
So I checked my Ammonia, Nitrites and Phosphates when I got home and here is where I stand.

Ammonia - o on red sea kit and 0.001 on the seneye
Nitrite - Over 1, Crimson red in color.
Phosphate - 0.43, this is with the Hanna ULR Phosphorous checker. The actual reading was 141, then multiplied that bu 3.067 and then divided by 1000 to get ppm.
.

Given that nitrite reading, the nitrate readings are suspect and there's no easy way to know the nitrate level. I'd wait till the nitrite disappears to assess the nitrate.
 
Maybe it's time to become more cynical about hobby companies unless they can provide some sort of justification of unexpectedly good claims.
Isn't this the truth!

My personal pet peeve is Coppersafe. On the Fritz website they list the therapeutic range of copper at 0.15ppm to 0.2ppm. Their recommended dosing ends up at 1.16ppm by their own admission. Humblefish and others recommend 1.5ppm to 2ppm.

Bad information makes this hobby much harder than it needs to be.
 
Just for fun, let's explore how implausible are the claims of Brightwell for Nitratr :D

The nature of this implausibility is that seawater is mostly sodium chloride and yet they claim it can be regenerated in sodium chloride solutions. It says nothing about the ability to work in freshwater (where the scientific literature supports the ability to bind nitrate).

http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/nitratrt.php

"To initially lower excessive nitrate, each 500ml of NitratR will remove 20ppm nitrate in 100 US-gallons of water (or 10ppm per 200 US-gallons)"

OK, so that claim suggests that the 500 mL of NitratR is binding 20 ppm (mg/L) out of 100 gallons (378.5 liters), or 20 mg/L x 378.5 L = 7,570 mg or 7.6 grams of nitrate.

Sounds great so far!

They them claim that:
"To regenerate: Dissolve 4 cups table salt in 1 US-gallon of room-temperature water per 250-ml NitratR to be regenerated in a clean pail; place resin into pail and stir; allow beads to soak overnight; strain and rinse beads thoroughly in fresh water before re-using. "

OK, let's think it through. That 250 mL of polymer has 3.8 grams of nitrate on it (since Brightwell says 500 ml can bind 7.6 grams of nitrate). The more effective it is at binding nitrate relative to the competing ion, chloride, the more nitrate will remain bound in the regeneration solution. Let's take the case that regeneration means you get back 50% of the original capacity. Any less is, IMO, stretching the definition of being able to "regenerate" hundreds of times, and any more retained will make their product look even poorer in the analysis that follows.

So, that regeneration solution contains 4 cups of table salt. Four cups of sodium chloride weighs about 1170 grams of sodium chloride, and hence 710 grams of chloride.

If we think the regeneration is 50% complete, that means that the solution then contains half of the nitrate originally bound to the polymer, or half of 3.8 grams or 1.9 grams of nitrate (with 1.9 grams remaining on the polymer).

Since nitrate was coming off of the polymer, and chloride going on, and the process stopped at 1.9 grams of nitrate in the solution which also contains 710 grams of chloride (actually 709 g since 1 gram went onto the polymer), then the binding of nitrate stopped when the chloride to nitrate ratio in the regeneration solution was 709/1.9 = 373.

NOTE: This result means that nitrate is coming off the polymer, not on, when the level of the chloride in solution is higher than 373 times the nitrate concentration.

In seawater, the chloride concentration is about 19,000 ppm. This analysis would suggest that at any nitrate concentration below 1/373 times this level, or 51 ppm, nitrate would come off the polymer, not bind to it.

If we had assumed the regeneration procedure was even more effective (lets say 90%), then the numbers change so that the nitrate in solution at equilibrium is 3.42 grams and the chloride is about 708 g., so at any chloride to nitrate ratio above 708/3.42 = 207, nitrate is coming off rather than binding. This means that at nitrate concentrations below 19,000/207 = 92 ppm, no nitrate is binding.

Of course, we could keep pushing down on the actual ability to regenerate the polymer as claimed. Suppose only 10% is able to be regenerated in the method they claim (really not meeting the criteria for regeneration, IMO, but let's explore it). At 10% released, the nitrate in the regeneration fluid is 0.38 grams, and chloride is 710 grams, for a ratio of 710/0.38 = 1868. Thus, at any nitrate concentration below 19,000 ppm/1868 = 10 ppm, none will be binding.

Thus I conclude, as we already know from other basis, such as the scientific literature of the relative binding affinity of "nitrate specific resins" relative to chloride, that the claims of Brightwell do not survive a simplistic analysis.
Randy is scary smart. Wow.
 
So I checked my Ammonia, Nitrites and Phosphates when I got home and here is where I stand.

Ammonia - o on red sea kit and 0.001 on the seneye
Nitrite - Over 1, Crimson red in color.
Phosphate - 0.43, this is with the Hanna ULR Phosphorous checker. The actual reading was 141, then multiplied that bu 3.067 and then divided by 1000 to get ppm.

Looks like I could feed an army of Chaeto with that much phosphate.
Yup, I'd start the Chaeto as soon as you can before algae invades the main tank. I started mine much earlier even with no phosphates with the H380 and it grew great...even in a 60 gal I was pulling out a softball sized fistful a week about.
 
Even though my display tank has a deep sand bed refugium 1/3 of its size, my nitrates started to build after a few months. I started very mild vinegar dosing (I add 30 ml daily for 200 gallon system volume) and it has dropped to zero ever since.
 
So here is what I have done since posting.

Ran my mini reactor over night with a mix of gfo and carbon.
  • This cut my phosphates down to 0.2. I am running it now for about fours hours a day to help lower it over time while I wait.
Added a small, softball size, chunk of chaeto to the fuge are and set the grow light to run every night.
Ammonia is still at or near zero. No more dosing at all since.
Nitrite and Nitrate are still off the chart.

Reading more here in R2R and the whole topic of nitrate and nitrites is like ford vs chevy. I am going to sit on it for another few days and then decide where to go. best part is that my pajama cardinals in QT are doing great. no signs of disease, active swimmers and eating great. They have already learned that when I come to the tank they get fed. They all cluster up at the glass and start looking at me like 'where's my food man'
20171102_193611.jpg
 
Update

Still at zero ammonia and the phosphates are dropping daily with the small use of the reactor. The chaeto ball looks happy in it's new home and I am running the fuge light at night for 10 hours.

I am looking at options for a few CUC to add to the tank. I am firmly in the group of NOT adding hundreds of these creatures to a new tank. I am thinking of maybe five to ten total and feeding them by hand if necessary.

I like the idea of a few blue leg her it's and some nassariuos snails to start turning over my sand bed. I would think that adding these now and feeding them some food will also help to keep the ammonia reducing bacteria entertained? Does that sound right?
 
Update

Still at zero ammonia and the phosphates are dropping daily with the small use of the reactor. The chaeto ball looks happy in it's new home and I am running the fuge light at night for 10 hours.

I am looking at options for a few CUC to add to the tank. I am firmly in the group of NOT adding hundreds of these creatures to a new tank. I am thinking of maybe five to ten total and feeding them by hand if necessary.

I like the idea of a few blue leg her it's and some nassariuos snails to start turning over my sand bed. I would think that adding these now and feeding them some food will also help to keep the ammonia reducing bacteria entertained? Does that sound right?
Sounds very reasonable.

Also, keep in mind that macro algae will directly consume ammonia so you will be in great shape that way.
 
UPDATE

One of my pet peeves is dead threads with no final updates so here is mine.

Checked the tank again today. Amonia is as close to zero as my eyes can determine. Nitrite finally took a deep dive and they are just at about 0.2'ish and Nitrates are actually measuring lower as someone here predicted.

Tank is doing great, all systems are go for launch. Thanks everyone for all the advice and input.
 

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