It looks like the Turkish delight that was imported to BRS around Nov 2021 may be a bad batch (or something is definitely different with the batch)… cloudy water, the citrus chemical smell, brown sludge. Never been an issue with the German made salt.
@Lou Ekus Thank you for your reply. There are several other threads here on R2R (mostly in the chemistry forum) also having issues with new batches of the salt out of Turkey along with many threads/comments in local FB groups of people having issues. Perhaps a bad batch went out and otherwise normally there is no issues with your Turkish made salt? Simply stating that there is no differences between the two facilities still negats the fact that many are having issues with a batch of salt that came out of your Turkey plant around Oct-Nov 2021 mainly distributed by BRS.I know this post will be cut and pasted, and in some instances my comments may be misrepresented. However, this issue is important enough that I would still like to try to address it. I also apologize for the length of this post. But there is a lot I need to say.
Tropic Marin has been one of the most respected salt manufacturers for well over 50 years. In addition to our loyal hobbyists, our products are used by zoos, aquariums, and research facilities around the globe. This positions us extremely well to identify any systemic issue with our products. We have tens of thousands of buckets and boxes of salt in the marketplace that were manufactured in our new facility in Turkey. Much of that product has gone to commercial accounts including many research facilities working with extremely sensitive organisms. We have not seen one complaint from any of those accounts. Contacting them directly for feedback has not turned up any concerns. This is in addition to our internal ICP and HPLC testing of many batch samples.
I, personally, have done everything I can to track down and address as many of the hobbyists concerns as possible. For all the online mentions of “tons of them”, they amount to a couple of dozen at best. However, the small number doesn’t stop me from still trying to track down each one and help. People have been very “vocal” in message boards. But seem very hesitant to reply to requests for direct contact. And when I have been able to make personal contact, they are then very hesitant to submit samples of the salt they are complaining about. This has resulted in my only being able to actually test a hand full of samples from customers complaining of issues. Of those samples none has resulted in my being able to reproduce any of the concerns.
Here are just two specific examples:
This is the result of a test of a sample from a customer complaining of “cloudy” result when mixing water change water. This is what the test water looked like right after everything was dissolved. The bucket on the top is my “control” mixed with salt made in the German facility. The bucket on the bottom is the result of the mixing with the sample, from the customer, of salt made in the Turkish facility:
This is the picture of the clarity, with a fork in the bottom of the buckets for easier viewing. This is the salt made in the German facility in the left photo and the Turkish facility in the right photo:
As you can see, they are Both crystal clear!
Here is another example. In order to address the complaints of “brown residue”, I left the salt sit in the bucket. The photo on the left is right after mixing. The photo on the right is after 14 days in the bucket:
As you can see, these are just two examples of testing where I was not able to reproduce the complaint, no matter how hard I tried or how long I left the sample sitting. BY the way, I did not smell an acidic scent when mixing the salt either.
I am NOT saying that the complaint is in the customer’s head. I am NOT saying that they are not having the issue. But I am saying that I cannot reproduce the issue when reproducing their mixing procedure with the same exact salt.
Tropic Marin stands behind it’s products 100%. We will continue to follow up on every complaint that we can. We will continue to do our best to help our customers when they are experiencing any type of issue. We respectfully ask that you help us by contacting us directly and sending in samples when needed. Forums like these are fantastic places to discuss methods, principles and issues in reef keeping. They are less effective when being used for individual product support and customer service issues. Those types of things are much more effectively done in direct contact. I am always available to help. You can email me directly at [email protected]. Or you can call the office, during east coast business hours at 413-367-0101.
There has been no change in the formula of Tropic Marin salt. This is true for both of our German facilities AND for our facility in Turkey. There has been no compromise in raw materials grades, mixing procedures or quality controls in ANY of our facilities, including our one in Turkey. There should be no differences in salt made from ANY of the Tropic Marin manufacturing facilities. We have done extensive and exhaustive testing of our salt products from our Turkish facility and find NO differences in comparison to the salt manufactured in our German facility. We encourage any user of Tropic Marin products to contact us directly, at the email or phone number above, with any complaints or concerns. We will be more than happy to help address your issue.
I sincerely hope that this post in taken as intended and shows the commitment that Tropic Marin has to our customers and to the the continued quality of our products.
Thanks for your reply. I will see how I can send a shipping label to you to get that batch number and sample. Can you email me with your full contact information so I can get back to you on that?
@FragQueen can you please provide the batch number on your salts? I unfortunately no longer have my packaging to get that info but we are experiencing the same thing, so we have the same batch i'm assuming.This morning after mixing overnight, the TM I got from BRS is still not clear. What’s worse is I can actually see the brown sludge at the bottom of my brute can before even draining it! That is a first for me. I’ve dealt with Red Sea brown sludge plenty, but never have I been able to see it before wiping the container. I’m very disappointed and concerned. The solution also still has the same odor of citrus cleaning products. But hey, Lou said above that their products are 100% safe so let’s see how my QT tank likes it. Parameters 1.025 salinity, 6.5 alkalinity (so now I have to supplement, great) Ca 410, Mg 1200! My test kit is a Red Sea with an esp date of 9/2022 and using an ATC refractometer. My water comes from a well on my property and I have a whole home treatment system. TDS going into my dual membrane RO unit is 120ish. I let my rodi water Gas off overnight. Then remove the remaining ~5 tds with BRS dual canister DI resins. I’ve been mixing multiple brands for years and at the very least none of them have ever had a fragrance. I’ve got both my TM boxes here and will contact the appropriate parties Monday I guess. I’ve attached pictures taken just now. One is my brute can mixing Red Sea as my back-up, the other is TM. I’ll let y’all decide which is which based on what I’ve said so far. For years, after mixing a large batch of water I will hose down the inside of the can, and then spray down the inside with RODI water, and dry it out with paper towels. My brute cans are always clean, always ready.
This morning after mixing overnight, the TM I got from BRS is still not clear. What’s worse is I can actually see the brown sludge at the bottom of my brute can before even draining it! That is a first for me. I’ve dealt with Red Sea brown sludge plenty, but never have I been able to see it before wiping the container. I’m very disappointed and concerned. The solution also still has the same odor of citrus cleaning products. But hey, Lou said above that their products are 100% safe so let’s see how my QT tank likes it. Parameters 1.025 salinity, 6.5 alkalinity (so now I have to supplement, great) Ca 410, Mg 1200! My test kit is a Red Sea with an esp date of 9/2022 and using an ATC refractometer. My water comes from a well on my property and I have a whole home treatment system. TDS going into my dual membrane RO unit is 120ish. I let my rodi water Gas off overnight. Then remove the remaining ~5 tds with BRS dual canister DI resins. I’ve been mixing multiple brands for years and at the very least none of them have ever had a fragrance. I’ve got both my TM boxes here and will contact the appropriate parties Monday I guess. I’ve attached pictures taken just now. One is my brute can mixing Red Sea as my back-up, the other is TM. I’ll let y’all decide which is which based on what I’ve said so far. For years, after mixing a large batch of water I will hose down the inside of the can, and then spray down the inside with RODI water, and dry it out with paper towels. My brute cans are always clean, always ready.
You are experiencing the exact same thing I am. Brown residue and low parameters. I've had to dose Alkalinty but now I have to add Alk, Ca and Mg because all three are low.
As I have explained, the "brown sludge" that you are getting is most likely a result of Mn metabolization by bacteria or oxidation. I am sorry that you are seeing that and we are doing our best to try to understand why this might be showing up as often as it is right now. So I will "hedge" on that issue for the moment and just say we are working on this none stop.
Both Mn and Fe get metabolized VERY quickly. They are also elements that are almost always elevated, above NSW levels, in freshly mixed salt water. This elevation does not cause an elevated value in the reef system due to this quick metabolization. As far as I know, this is true for many brands. The concentrations of these elements, in freshly made Tropic Marin salt mix is not appreciably different today than it has historically been on our salts. This is true for all of our manufacturing facilities. So, while I agree that this looks like a good place to start, it is probably a value that is getting noticed now, but in actuality, has not changed from before.
To be honest, I don't remember off hand and the team is gone by now in Germany. But I just went through this with them and the current level was the same as before. Sorry I don't remember.
Lou, thank you for your response. I just tonight mixed anew batch of water. I checked the salinity using a new Hanna digital refractometer it mmrasured 1.026. I double checked us a hand held freshly calibrated handheld refractometer that also reads 1.026. I bought the Hanna digital revpfrac because my Hanna salinity checker stopped working, I e always backed that up with my handheld refrac.
For our salts mixed in Germany I can help Lou out!
Maybe our Turkey-mixed salt is a bit low in manganese?
Thank you for the response.For our salts mixed in Germany I can help Lou out!
In our Germany-mixed salt mixes we usually find around 100 ppb Mn with extremes from ca. 80 to 180 ppb. Concentrations are determinded by our routine ICP-OES batch checks.
I recall a talk of Julian Sprung some years ago where he attributed the success with Goniopora at the Waikiki Aquarium Hawaii to the water taken from a well rich in manganese.
Iron concentrations we find in our Germany-mixed salts are around 1/3 of the Mn concentrations, around 30 ppb. In my experience it is advantagous if the Mn supply exceeds the Fe supply, which also applies to our other products containing and supplying trace elements, like All-For-Reef and K+ Elements. In my experience the corals like it better this way round.
Nevertheless, in running tanks Fe and Mn usually are below the detection limits of ICP-OES. I think most of these two trace metals is precipitated by bacteria quite rapidly. If water is circulated for some time in the mixing tanks bacteria will grow which will precipitate manganese. We have checked the resulting brown "dust" with ICP-OES, and it hast turned out to be mainly manganese as I had expected. The blackish-brown color like the Söchting Oxidator ceramic is quite typical.
Have I skipped or missed a link?
