Pro Reef salt from Turkey

[rtparty]

No its not my problem to trouble shoot TM issues.
my red sea salt measured 0 phosphorus

You are making the claims, so yes it is your problem to troubleshoot the issues. You are claiming phosphate in the salt mix (which is fine. We've seen this before with every salt on the market at some point), but you don't want to test anything else it could be.

Even the latest ICP tests are showing phosphate in Red Sea salt. So again, this happens with every salt out there. Phosphorous is an essential element for life.

 

[jcdeng]

Freedom of choice, you can still use TM and support your favorite salt company while others have the right to choose to protect their investments, better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Bugger]

You are making the claims, so yes it is your problem to troubleshoot the issues. You are claiming phosphate in the salt mix (which is fine. We've seen this before with every salt on the market at some point), but you don't want to test anything else it could be.

I've tested two salts ok one came back with no phosphate and TM came back with 88 pub phosphate. my corals are dead.

 

[Ryan Avery]

First, from what I’ve seen and has been reported, there are maybe 12 people complaining. I don’t think that’s statistically significant.

It would be significant if it was your tank that suffered because a bad batch

 

[reef_ranch]

It would be significant if it was your tank that suffered because a bad batch

sure. The question we’re trying to answer is whether any tanks suffered because of the salt or a myriad other reasons why our tanks can suddenly suffer. So far ICP results have shown nothing wrong with any batches of the salt. If it were my tank and the salt tested fine, I’d look elsewhere.

 

[happyhourhero]

Looks like sbb switched away from tm as well. Seeing local folks do the same. Hopefully it all gets sorted out. I was excited to have a small tank to start using this salt too. Will wait it out.

 

[ssdawood]

Maybe contamination happened at BRS storage.
Salt simply stored next to something citrus smelling.
Like a cleaner, floor cleaner.

I am not a chemist so maybe that's why I am not understanding why can't ICP test on German and Turkish salt show us the culprit. We have those in our possession.

I use to use Instant ocean as I started my new tank. You guys and BRS raved about how clear this salt it. So I bought a bucket.

Good thing I didn't use it.

Sorry guys who lost corals. This hobby is heartbreaker.

 

[Utubereefer]

First, from what I’ve seen and has been reported, there are maybe 12 people complaining. I don’t think that’s statistically significant. As to those, none have shown super high levels of any element. Even SBB’s ICP came back in line with what TM apparently has always had.

I think it’s fine to be cautious with what you put in your tank. There are other excellent salt mixes out there. I use Red Sea blue bucket from time to time and am happy with it as well. I just don’t see any actual evidence that would make me stop using a salt I have had good success with for many years. I also am concerned that a good company is being dragged unfairly.

I believe the iron in SBB tests was climbing and not dissipating like TM said

 

[Duffer]

i wish folks would keep to this thread and not the 15 others on this forum, so TM could see all the concerns.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Also none of the montis or regular acro corals are affected by the issue based on my observation. They all act as if nothing changed. The issue affects only few specific high end tenuis like JF Home wrecker, SC Orange Passion and some Malaysia tenuis (established 2 year old colonies and frags). Some milli also react with receded polyps but I haven't lost a milli. They just look stressed out.

In my experience in most cases when Acropora react this way I would suspect high alkalinity or low phosphate concentration. Maybe meanwhile I would also add low iodine concentration.

Since reef aquaria are living and dynamic systems this may occur at every age of the corals. Maybe a salt mix has contributed to this, maybe not. From this single observation, even if the problems are caused by the salt mix, the salt mix could be better or worse in its parameters.

Let's say phosphate was at its lower limit and other elements like for example iodine or nickel where limiting also, "improving" the conditions by adding iodine and nickel and releasing the corals from this limitation may finally depress phosphate concentrations further, causing damage to the corals. A lower phosphate concentration in the salt mix may even contribute to the problem although phosphate concentration should be as low as possible, of course.

In reef aquaria, things are only very rarely simple, usually they are complex. This makes the search for causes difficult.

In a reef tank well stocked with SPS, every day of dosing Ca, KH and trace elements may do more to stabilize or destabilize the water parameters than a 10 % water change.

Of course the saltwater is the basis for reefing, nevertheless the impact of a single or a few water changes of 10 % each should not be overestimated. It is more the stabilizing long-term effect that counts.

88ppb is .08ppm and hardly an issue (assuming it's even from the salt and not your mixing container.) A 10% water change wouldn't even register a change on your test.

I agree, and corals will do well even with 0.5 ppm.

I think I have seen much more corals dying from low phosphate concentrations and know more tanks that have been crashed by measures against high phosphate concentrations than I have seen problems with high phosphate concentrations.

Maybe contamination happened at BRS storage.
Salt simply stored next to something citrus smelling.

I think BRS is a very good and very professional shop and I don't think that. I am sure they are not causing the problem, if there is one with the salt.

 

[GillMeister]

First, a personal qualifier. I switched to another salt due to a lack of TM Pro availability. I have no horse in this race.

I've spent some time watching this and other threads concerning perceived TM Pro quality issues. I'm coming away with a couple thoughts and observations.
1. To those hinting or outright saying a forum is not the place to air grievances. I disagree wholeheartedly. As long as people are relaying actual issues they've experienced it's good for the entire community as well as the manufacturer. This is how they improve.
2. I am absolutely impressed with the well-thought responses from Lou and Hans. This is how it should be done. Obviously they take great pride in TM products and are skeptical of any reported quality issues. That said, they are digging in and looking for potential causes and have been very transparent with the investigation. TM might find that everything they monitor for quality assurance is well within specified parameters but one thing they aren't monitoring, or controlling, is the root cause.

It will be interesting to hear the results when they're published. I would bet money if a root cause is assigned TM will bring it under control.

 

[rtparty]

I agree, and corals will do well even with 0.5 ppm.

I think I have seen much more corals dying from low phosphate concentrations and know more tanks that have been crashed by measures against high phosphate concentrations than I have seen problems with high phosphate concentrations.


I think BRS is a very good and very professional shop and I don't think that. I am sure they are not causing the problem, if there is one with the salt.

Richard Ross was running his tank at .92 and not seeing any issues. People overuse the phosphate excuse. Most of us these days are feeding extra, buying more fish, or even dosing phosphate to keep it detectable. .08 from new salt isn't killing everything. Most of the tank would appreciate it.

I also doubt it came from BRS in any way. The boxes and buckets are sealed plus the bag of salt is sealed as well. Pretty tough to contaminate anything that way. I've also been to the BRS warehouse and don't think floor cleaning is on their routine maintenance. Too many boxes and people to keep it clean

 

[poidog]

Hey, OP here - I want to thank everyone who has come to this thread to raise some of the same, and additional, concerns they have seen with the Turkish made salt. I want to say this thread was not created to bash or discredit TM in anyway.

As a long time reefer and long time users of TM salt (before it ever got popular by BRS, it used to be the odd man out salt back in the day), when I opened a new box of Pro salt the distinctive strong acidic smell (which I have never EVER had experienced before for the 15+ years of using TM salt) hit me I knew something was different. Looking at the box I saw this was one of the new Turkish batches, and the first batch of Turkish salt I had received. After mixing it the physical properties, smell, and sludge were all new and I knew something was not right.

This then led me to searching the issue out online which I found some complaints about the Turkish made salt scattered around the interwebs. That is why I decieded to start this thread, to see if others have also been experiencing issues and for TM to weigh in on the matter. Again, I approached this first that this could of been simply a change in raw chemical that only Turkey is getting based on supply chains, etc. I was looking for TM's confirmation that yes the properties were normal for the Turkish facility, or no they are not and could potentially be a bad batch. I was initially disappointed by TM's initial response of taking a defensive stands that nothing is wrong with the turkish salt, however Lou has been very helpful and genuinely concerned. He sent me a shipping label to send him a sample of the salt, which I have along with a sample of my tried and true German made batch.

I cannot attest to any ill effects to livestock as I did not use the mixed water in my tank, the physically properties being off and enough examples I found of people with negative experiences held me off from its use. I hope with my sample, and with others that have come to this thread, TM can pinpoint the issue.

As far as a consumer prospective goes, I do share the same sentiment that others have mentioned, with no disrespect, that if I'm buying a German made product I expect a German made product. Turkey is not known for great quality standards and Germany is the exact opposite as a pinnacle of those standards. TM is a premium product at a premium price, and as a such I expect it to be made in Germany. Its like you bought a Mercedes, expecting German made, but find out it was assembled in Mexico.

 

[Slicktop]

I have 2 boxes of the salt made from Turkey plant, i just checked the boxes and got them from BRS. I will open and check for the strong smells. Regardless, I will need more salt if these smell acidic in anyway. Does anyone know if BRS has different batches now with out this issue?

 

[ssdawood]

Don't know. But I canceled my delivery for TM from BRS.
They were understanding about it.

 

[Duffer]

for the record, i received a box from BRS about a month ago listed from Turkey. Have made 2 batches so far and not one single issue, no smell, no brown..

 

[spicymikey]

Four reports out of thousands of users suggests there is something going on with the users rather than the salt. Might be the salt, but if so, why so few reporting this? I went through 400g of TMPR from Turkey since Black Friday when I bought it from BRS and my mixing vat is clean.

I just think we owe TM the benefit of the doubt especially when they have been so responsive and have been unable to duplicate these few reports. Obviously if it’s proven that something went wrong with a batch of salt, I expect TM to recall it and make good on the salt purchased. Until then, I would hope we don’t to conclusions that may unfairly hurt a good company.

Interesting viewpoint. Why would you assume since its not happening to you, it must be stupid users?

I've been using TM Pro for about a year. Mixing 100 gal batches at a time for slow drip water changes. When I go to refill the vat it is always clean.

The batch I mixed and dripped in December made the bottom of my vat look like this afterwards. Its normally as white as the walls. Can you offer any suggestions of what I might have done wrong? I'm open to ideas. Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct one. Knowing that i didn't dump dirt into my vat, I am pretty certain it came in the box. It has no earthy or organic odor. I tasted it and it has a sharp metalic taste. My money is on iron oxide. I'm sending out an ICP test today. Lets see what it says

 

[reef_ranch]

Interesting viewpoint. Why would you assume since its not happening to you, it must be stupid users?

I've been using TM Pro for about a year. Mixing 100 gal batches at a time for slow drip water changes. When I go to refill the vat it is always clean.

The batch I mixed and dripped in December made the bottom of my vat look like this afterwards. Its normally as white as the walls. Can you offer any suggestions of what I might have done wrong? I'm open to ideas. Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct one. Knowing that i didn't dump dirt into my vat, I am pretty certain it came in the box. It has no earthy or organic odor. I tasted it and it has a sharp metalic taste. My money is on iron oxide. I'm sending out an ICP test today. Lets see what it says

Get an ICP test and contact Tropic Marin to see if they want a sample of your salt to try to replicate your issue. Seems the most reasonable course of action. I can't give a well reasoned opinion why your vat has discoloration. Or whether the discoloration is harmful to your animals.

 

[rtparty]

Hey, OP here - I want to thank everyone who has come to this thread to raise some of the same, and additional, concerns they have seen with the Turkish made salt. I want to say this thread was not created to bash or discredit TM in anyway.

As a long time reefer and long time users of TM salt (before it ever got popular by BRS, it used to be the odd man out salt back in the day), when I opened a new box of Pro salt the distinctive strong acidic smell (which I have never EVER had experienced before for the 15+ years of using TM salt) hit me I knew something was different. Looking at the box I saw this was one of the new Turkish batches, and the first batch of Turkish salt I had received. After mixing it the physical properties, smell, and sludge were all new and I knew something was not right.

This then led me to searching the issue out online which I found some complaints about the Turkish made salt scattered around the interwebs. That is why I decieded to start this thread, to see if others have also been experiencing issues and for TM to weigh in on the matter. Again, I approached this first that this could of been simply a change in raw chemical that only Turkey is getting based on supply chains, etc. I was looking for TM's confirmation that yes the properties were normal for the Turkish facility, or no they are not and could potentially be a bad batch. I was initially disappointed by TM's initial response of taking a defensive stands that nothing is wrong with the turkish salt, however Lou has been very helpful and genuinely concerned. He sent me a shipping label to send him a sample of the salt, which I have along with a sample of my tried and true German made batch.

I cannot attest to any ill effects to livestock as I did not use the mixed water in my tank, the physically properties being off and enough examples I found of people with negative experiences held me off from its use. I hope with my sample, and with others that have come to this thread, TM can pinpoint the issue.

As far as a consumer prospective goes, I do share the same sentiment that others have mentioned, with no disrespect, that if I'm buying a German made product I expect a German made product. Turkey is not known for great quality standards and Germany is the exact opposite as a pinnacle of those standards. TM is a premium product at a premium price, and as a such I expect it to be made in Germany. Its like you bought a Mercedes, expecting German made, but find out it was assembled in Mexico.

To your last point, that is extremely common though. Maybe not with Mercedes exactly but BMW builds a load of their cars here. The X3 has always been made here in their South Carolina plant. Would you cry foul for that? A lot of American cars are coming out of Mexico these days. Hondas aren't built in Japan. Etc etc

I can't find anywhere that says we are buying TM salt specifically made in Germany.

 

[rtparty]

Interesting viewpoint. Why would you assume since its not happening to you, it must be stupid users?

I've been using TM Pro for about a year. Mixing 100 gal batches at a time for slow drip water changes. When I go to refill the vat it is always clean.

The batch I mixed and dripped in December made the bottom of my vat look like this afterwards. Its normally as white as the walls. Can you offer any suggestions of what I might have done wrong? I'm open to ideas. Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct one. Knowing that i didn't dump dirt into my vat, I am pretty certain it came in the box. It has no earthy or organic odor. I tasted it and it has a sharp metalic taste. My money is on iron oxide. I'm sending out an ICP test today. Lets see what it says

It's iron or manganese