Problem with angelfish

[coral_menagerie]

Hello all,

I have been looking through the fish disease information and can't seem to identify what's going on with my angelfish. I have had an Imperator, Queen, Magnificent, an Annularis angelfishes in my tank for several years now and all of a sudden my Imperator starts looking pale. The color was all washed out. All of them are and the Imperator was eating well. I just thought maybe the orange spot rabbitfish stung it or something crazy like that. The discoloration went on for a few weeks and then 2 days ago the Imperator looked real bad and the Annularis started getting the same discoloration, like the color was all washed out and white bloches. Yesterday my Imperator died. At this point I do not know what caused this and I am very concerned for my other fish. Attached are some pictures of the Annularis as he looks today. Please help!

 

[Humblefish]

The Annularis looks splotchy. Is this a correct observation on my part? Or a trick of the camera?

Also, when was the last fish or any livestock added to this aquarium? Do you QT?

 

[coral_menagerie]

Yes very splotchy. Whitish blotches all over. Yes I do quarantine. The last livestock I added to my tank in the last 6 months to a year where some Mexican turbo snails. For those I did a freshwater dip and added them to the system.

 

[Humblefish]

Any behavioral symptoms such as head twitching, rubbing, flashing? Do you ever see ich on any of your fish?

 

[coral_menagerie]

No have not really noticed any behavioral symptoms. I added the snails about a month or so ago.

 

[coral_menagerie]

Oh and I have not seen ich in this tank. Thank you for the help!

 

[Humblefish]

No have not really noticed any behavioral symptoms. I added the snails about a month or so ago.

It's possible something hitchhiked it's way in on the snail shells. The tomont stage of most external parasites (ich, velvet, brook) encysts upon hard surfaces, including shells. Flukes and a bacterial infection can also cause splotchy skin though. Are you comfortable doing a FW dip on fish?

The FW dip you did on the snails would have washed away any parasite "free swimmers" and probably also any flukes/harmful bacterium. But not tomonts.

 

[coral_menagerie]

Yes, I am comfortable doing freshwater dip on fish. The problem is catching them. Don't know how I would catch them without dismantling the rockwork.

 

[Humblefish]

Yes, I am comfortable doing freshwater dip on fish. The problem is catching them. Don't know how I would catch them without dismantling the rockwork.

The FW dip would confirm the presence of flukes, as you would see tiny white worms falling out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 min mark. If these failed to manifest, we could focus more on an external parasite and/or a bacterial infection being at the root of the problem.

A few more questions: Ever observe any stringy white feces coming out of the fish? Are any of your fish acting reclusive, staying out of the light? Are any swimming into the flow of a powerhead?

 

[Z06-Hec]

I had my emperor angel die from something similar... never could find anything on the internet on any possible diagnosis. He literally faded away and in the end was at bottom of the QT tank with blood coming out of his gills.
Now I feed all my fish NLS Hex Pellets and ICH pellets.
Your supposed to feed them for 3 days only every once in a while. 1 time a month or every other month I give them a feeding.

 

[coral_menagerie]

No white feces. The Annularis and the Magnificent have always been reclusive and I not seeing the fish going at the powerheads. Is there a better way of catching the fish for FW dip?

 

[Humblefish]

No white feces. The Annularis and the Magnificent have always been reclusive and I not seeing the fish going at the powerheads. Is there a better way of catching the fish for FW dip?

You can build a homemade fish trap out of eggcrate, zip ties & fishing line. Like this one here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15902634&postcount=10

Bait it with something a large angel will really go nuts over, like a clam.

 

[coral_menagerie]

i will give it a try.

 

[Humblefish]

Good luck, let me know the results. In the meantime, it wouldn't be a bad idea to start soaking your fish food with vitamin supplements. Or take it a step further, and soak their food in an antibiotic such as kanamycin or erythromycin. And maybe alternate feedings with food soaked in praziquantel & metronidazole (de-wormers). Or even just the pellets mentioned above. Might buy you some time until we figure out the exact cause of the problem.

Is this a FO or a reef?

 

[4FordFamily]

So I had this problem in my angel tank... IMO and IME emperor Angels only do this when they are very stressed and generally only when they have parasites. I lost Angel after Angel after Angel in my angel tank and could not figure out what was going on.

I bought healthy Angels, added them (non qt because I was an idiot) and they would all do this. Fine for 1-2 days, lethargic a day and hiding, dead the next. The emperors would slowly become more and more splotchy over this period as well.

It eventually killed 10 Angels, each time I was sure I "fixed" the problem. Turns out it was an invisible strain of velvet that showed NO classic symptoms outside of what was described. I guess it only attacked the gills. Even the dead fish had zero dusting or anything to identify it as velvet.

Then, I added a chevron when I gave up on Angels, blaming it on collection and shipping, and it was the first fish to show some classic velvet symptoms. I treated everyone with copper and have since kept every Angel I've added since without issue!

Emperor, king/passer, Queen, blue face, rock beauty, potters, flame, and even a moorish idol! All in cupramine with ZERO issues even at .7 PPM.

I have a regal Angel in the same concentration in another tank with another flame and a flame back. No issues whatsoever.

I don't know how you would have gotten it, but sharing nets, corals, inverts, who knows?

Also I know I had this strain for months and didn't know. My hippo tang survived it for months whilst Angels dropped dead. My wrasse were all completely unaffected, wrasse are tough. The hippo did succomb the same time the chevron did unfortunately, but it goes to show you how some strains can affect one group of fish far worse than others.

Most strains of velvet are far more deadly and to nearly all fish.

Now that tank also has an Achilles tang and yellow belly hippo that were added with the Angels without issue.

 

[Z06-Hec]

catching fish is much easier at night or lights out. Let them think its sleep time they just stay in place. Go in with your hand and pin them on the glass and scoop them up. I never use nets unless I really have to, it always gets their fins caught and stressed them more.

 

[coral_menagerie]

Thanks for all the great advice. I am thinking it is some kind of parasite. Just saw the Annularis scratching itself on a rock. More bad news my 2 Anthias are MIA.

@3FordFamily: That is interesting. My Imperator, other than the blotches, seemed healthy didn't show any signs of velvet or ich, then the day it died it stopped eating. Before that it was eating normally. Don't know what I could have done to stress the Imperator. It has been in that tank for over 3 years.

@Humblefish: I have been using Selcon with their food. Since you suggested that for my 2 Blue Face Angels in QT tank. They are doing well and have gotten rid of whatever was on their fins, just from using the Selcon. I was getting ready to put them into the display when this happened. Good thing I waited.

Also, if this is a parasite thing and I FW dip all the fish. What happens then? How do I rid the system of this pest. Currently I am running a little over 600 gallons in total system water. I just changed the refugium, which is a 90 gallon into a reef by adding rock and sand to it, was getting ready to start loading corals in it. The sand and rock have all been in the system for years. Just moved it from one tank to another. My system consists of 180 DT fish only, 55 gal. drum as bubble trap, 150 rubbermaid full of rock, 100 rubbermaid full of sand, 100 rubbermaid sump, and 90 gal reef. How do I rid the system of this without nuking all the inverts. I just got a population of ghost shrimp to breed in my rock tank and the copepod and amphipod population I setup with the help of Algagen is huge. I started with dry rock and dry sand and added what I wanted trying to keep the system pure and now this. How to get rid of the pests!?

 

[Humblefish]

: I have been using Selcon with their food. Since you suggested that for my 2 Blue Face Angels in QT tank. They are doing well and have gotten rid of whatever was on their fins, just from using the Selcon. I was getting ready to put them into the display when this happened. Good thing I waited.

Probably was Lymphocystis on their fins. It's a virus many fish carry - think of it as the "herpes" of the fish world. It comes & goes, usually when a fish is stressed, but good water quality and fish vitamins seems to suppress symptoms. Sometimes almost indefinitely.

Also, if this is a parasite thing and I FW dip all the fish. What happens then? How do I rid the system of this pest. Currently I am running a little over 600 gallons in total system water. I just changed the refugium, which is a 90 gallon into a reef by adding rock and sand to it, was getting ready to start loading corals in it. The sand and rock have all been in the system for years. Just moved it from one tank to another. My system consists of 180 DT fish only, 55 gal. drum as bubble trap, 150 rubbermaid full of rock, 100 rubbermaid full of sand, 100 rubbermaid sump, and 90 gal reef. How do I rid the system of this without nuking all the inverts. I just got a population of ghost shrimp to breed in my rock tank and the copepod and amphipod population I setup with the help of Algagen is huge. I started with dry rock and dry sand and added what I wanted trying to keep the system pure and now this. How to get rid of the pests!?

Assuming it's an external parasite, like ich or velvet, the only way to eradicate it from your DT is to go fallow (fishless). What you are doing is essentially starving it to death by denying it a fish host to feed on, thus breaking the parasite's life cycle. Fallow times vary by disease - but you can play it safe and go fallow for 72 days. That is the longest recorded time ich tomonts were able to stay encysted without releasing theronts into the water.

 

[coral_menagerie]

Just got our internet service back. There was an outage halfway through the day yesterday and I guess it came back on during the night. Anyway.

I am still thinking this is a parasite problem. What else could it be? All the fish have been in my DT for over 2 years, most of them 3 or 4 years and this all started shortly after I put the snails in the tank. So I am filling a spare 75 gallon aquarium I have and am planning to move all the fish over to it. Just bare bones. No rock, no sand, just PVC pipe to hide in. Just like a QT tank. What kind of filtration should I use or should I just do weekly water changes like 5% a week? Then should I still do a FW dip before putting the fish in that tank? Or just go with the Cupramine and Prazipro routine? If I should still do a FW dip can you please explain how to do this? Although I have been in the hobby for 25+ years, most of my experience is with reefs and there are many things I still am unfamiliar with and I don't want to stress my fish any more than is required. After the 75 gal. tank is full (should be filled in an hour or so, RO/DI has been running all night) I will try catching all the fish with the eggcrate trap I have constructed, thank you for the link. I hope I do not have to remove rock, but at this point, whatever it takes. I already miss the Imperator and the Annularis is not looking good! Once I get the fish in the 75 gal. tank is 72 days long enough? I want to be dang sure this never happens again. Lastly, what is the procedure for QT'ing snails and inverts. I don't like to do a FW dip on shrimp or crab, they do not tolerate that well and it is obvious to me, now, that a FW dip alone is not the answer. This was a tough lesson to learn! I have tried very hard to keep pests out of my system.

Also, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the help you all are giving me! There are to many sites that just belittle people just because they don't know something. You all are great!!

 

[Humblefish]

Below are some resources to help you:

How to setup a QT: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/

You are going to need a filter that utilizes bio-media capable of housing nitrifying bacteria. To break down ammonia in QT. Below is an excerpt from the above article:

The use of “seeded” bio-media can help to break down ammonia. I personally use an Aquaclear HOB power filter, utilizing the “foam insert” i.e. sponge it comes with. I “seed” the sponge (or multiples) in a high flow area of my DT’s sump (or you can put it behind your rocks) for at least one month prior to QT. This one month allows time for enough beneficial bacteria to transfer onto the sponge, so that it may be used as biological filtration once placed back in the power filter and used in QT. An alternative (albeit expensive) way to instantly seed your sponge is to pour some Bio-Spira, Seachem Stability or Dr Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria over it just prior to use. Below is a pic of the Aquaclear HOB power filter and correlating “foam” sponge (you can buy additional sponges cheaply):