Proper alk for ULN tank?

[Lovefish77]

So i am recovering from my sps loss and starting to think about buying SPS again.
My main question is what the ideal alk level or alk range to have if you are running ultra low nutrients (like undetectable N and below 0.03 P)? I heard people saying the tipping point for ULN is anything above 8 dkh, while others say it is above 7 dkh!
Just need some perspective from the experts here.

thanks and Happy New Year everyone.

 

[BigRed78]

I’m no expert lol but it seems to me alk is pretty hotly debated

 

[Lovefish77]

I’m no expert lol but it seems to me alk is pretty hotly debated

Nice that is a good start

 

[DivingTheWorld]

I keep my Alk around 7.5 with Nitrate/Phosphate +/- 5/0.05. If Alk gets above 8, I make adjustments. I consider that ULN. Is there a particular tank you’re trying to emulate by running low-no nutrient? Seems like a risky proposition.

 

[Lovefish77]

I keep my Alk around 7.5 with Nitrate/Phosphate +/- 5/0.05. If Alk gets above 8, I make adjustments. I consider that ULN. Is there a particular tank you’re trying to emulate by running low-no nutrient? Seems like a risky proposition.

So i am not trying to emulate a specific tank. My tank has a lot of nutrient export that i have trouble raising my N above zero (even if i feed like 6-7 cubes a day). When i tried raising N hell broke loose, but i think the culprit in the whole thing was my alk level to some degree. I was testing with salifert showing like 7.8 while Hanna was showing like 8.6. At the time i though Hanna was wrong but when i double checked with someone it turned out that Hanna was accurate.
So in trying to rethink the whole thing again, i am trying to find a sweet spot for alk with ULN. My nitrates are currently like 2ppm because i dosed sodium nitrates like 2 weeks ago (expect them to go down soon). But i want to plan for ULN as nutrients could slide without me knowing, that is why i am interested in finding the right alk for ULN.
Hope that helps
thanks

 

[DivingTheWorld]

What do you have for nutrient export and what did you do to attempt to raise Nitrate that didn’t work out for you?

I’m just wondering because I often see threads for folks who dose things like Nitrate/Phosphate/Coral Food, etc., but are doing all sorts of nutrient export at the same time (carbon Dosing, Chaeto, Refugerium, Algae Turf Scrubber, wet skimming). It seems counter productive.

 

[blasterman]

Yep...counterproductive. It's like trying to air condition your house with the windows open. I'm now seeing products like cheato fertilizer....which basically consists of ingredients you got the cheato to export in the first place.

You run nitrates up to where your SPS look the best and you don't have nuisance algae.

 

[Lovefish77]

What do you have for nutrient export and what did you do to attempt to raise Nitrate that didn’t work out for you?

I’m just wondering because I often see threads for folks who dose things like Nitrate/Phosphate/Coral Food, etc., but are doing all sorts of nutrient export at the same time (carbon Dosing, Chaeto, Refugerium, Algae Turf Scrubber, wet skimming). It seems counter productive.

I have a decent skimmer, marine pure block and a decent 7x8" screen diy ATS that is lit on both sides. I feed a lot and have a heavy bio load.
I tried to dose sodium nitrates to bump up nutrients, growth was very slow and colors a bit pale. After that all sps started crashing, could be partially due to a high alk and not just because of what i added.

 

[Lovefish77]

Yep...counterproductive. It's like trying to air condition your house with the windows open. I'm now seeing products like cheato fertilizer....which basically consists of ingredients you got the cheato to export in the first place.

You run nitrates up to where your SPS look the best and you don't have nuisance algae.

thanks but that is a bit too much trial and error for me
I am looking to go back to my low nutrients and i will tweak alk accordingly so i dont crash things, makes sense?

 

[Silent]

Seems like 7.0 is great for ulns but some can run up to 8.0 without alk burn. Might depend on the amount of carbon ran along with par numbers.
Best to see how high your tank alk can go without alk burn. If you start to see alk burn keep it a little lower.
Not scientific but each tank is different. It is a bit of trial and error to get max growth without alk burn.

 

[burningmime]

Is it an ultra low nutrition system, or just an ultra low nitrate/phosphate system (eg Zeovit or another heavy in/heavy out). If it's the latter, and corals have amino acid and prey to uptake, then I wouldn't worry.

 

[Lovefish77]

Seems like 7.0 is great for ulns but some can run up to 8.0 without alk burn. Might depend on the amount of carbon ran along with par numbers.
Best to see how high your tank alk can go without alk burn. If you start to see alk burn keep it a little lower.
Not scientific but each tank is different. It is a bit of trial and error to get max growth without alk burn.

I dont run any carbon. Par for sps is like 250 to 350.

 

[jda]

This is a complicated question, and then again, it is not...

The easy answer is that alk near 7.0 works for all tanks.

The complicated answer is that residual levels on a test kit do not tell you anything about what the corals are actually getting. I have low residual levels of about .1-.2 N (need ICP to detect) and .005-.01 P (1-3 ppb on Hannah Ultra low), but I feed a ton, have lots of ammonia/ammonium and all kinds of phosphate/phosphorous/inorganic/organic/etc that corals can use (photos in my re-build thread). Availability is the prize over residual levels which are fools gold in most cases. Do you feed a lot? If you do feed a lot, then your tank is far from ULN, even if you export a lot too... it is just a natural type of tank that needs no label. To me, you need to be driving AVAILABLE and RESIDUAL building blocks below natural levels with media or chemicals to truly be ULN - I have not really seen anybody do this for quite some time since it does not usually work out well. Zeo, and a few other methods, are coined as ULN, but they are far from it with TONs of available building blocks and people parroting the UNL monicker without digging deeper.

You only really need to worry about burnt tips if available amounts of N and P are so low that you limit organic tissue creation. This is a problem because with low residual levels of N and P really makes calcification hum/fast and the skeleton can outgrow the tissue and push right through the tissue. High availability of N and P can keep the tissue growing regardless of residual levels. This is why cutting back on feedings is never a good idea.

If you want to simplify, keep feeding a good amount, let the residuals stay where they may (find a level that you like and works) and keep the alk at 7.0.

 

[Arabyps]

You may have already viewed this BRS video regarding optimal alkalinity in the reef and it's effect on coral growth. If not the link follows.

New concept in reef tank Alkalinity: How it works & how to gain 70% or more coral growth!

Ryan shares a whole new perspective on your reef tank's Alkalinity. Diving deep into the science behind alkalinity, our host explains the relationship between pH, carbonic acid, bicarbonate and carbonate so you can stop leaving 70% or more coral growth on the table!

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Lovefish77]

Is it an ultra low nutrition system, or just an ultra low nitrate/phosphate system (eg Zeovit or another heavy in/heavy out). If it's the latter, and corals have amino acid and prey to uptake, then I wouldn't worry.

Ca you explain further? I dont run Zeovit

 

[Brandon McHenry]

So i am recovering from my sps loss and starting to think about buying SPS again.
My main question is what the ideal alk level or alk range to have if you are running ultra low nutrients (like undetectable N and below 0.03 P)? I heard people saying the tipping point for ULN is anything above 8 dkh, while others say it is above 7 dkh!
Just need some perspective from the experts here.

thanks and Happy New Year everyone.

First off I want to say I’m sorry about your coral losses, that’s always tough and hard to get over. My tank naturally runs on the lower N/P range but like I mentioned before, I feed quite a bit throughout the day to make sure there is always food/nutrition available to my inhabitants. I tend to keep my Alk between 7.3-7.5. I like that range because it gives me some wiggle room between too high or too low. However I strongly believe stability is key. I really don’t like to have my alkalinity levels swing throughout the day and I try to minimize this as best as possible. Did you ever get around to testing your Alk a few times throughout the day? And have your split your dosing evenly throughout the day as well?

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Ca you explain further? I dont run Zeovit

This is essentially the difference between only having a few fish and hardly feeding them to keep N/P low and having a lot of fish that are fed several times a day paired with strong export methods and still having low N/P. These two hypothetical tanks can both have low N/P but one has plenty of food/nutrition while the other does not. Zeovit is a great example of a low N/P system with lots of food available to the inhabitants.

 

[Lovefish77]

You may have already viewed this BRS video regarding optimal alkalinity in the reef and it's effect on coral growth. If not the link follows.

New concept in reef tank Alkalinity: How it works & how to gain 70% or more coral growth!

Ryan shares a whole new perspective on your reef tank's Alkalinity. Diving deep into the science behind alkalinity, our host explains the relationship between pH, carbonic acid, bicarbonate and carbonate so you can stop leaving 70% or more coral growth on the table!

www.bulkreefsupply.com

I did watch it. It discusses alkalinity in depth but does not correlate it to nutrients. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Lovefish77]

This is essentially the difference between only having a few fish and hardly feeding them to keep N/P low and having a lot of fish that are fed several times a day paired with strong export methods and still having low N/P. These two hypothetical tanks can both have low N/P but one has plenty of food/nutrition while the other does not. Zeovit is a great example of a low N/P system with lots of food available to the inhabitants.

But I have many fish , like 4 tangs in a 75 (yes you heard it right) and I feed sometime like 6 cubes a day including nori) and still cannot register nitrates. So it like having zeovit outcome without the zeovit gear lol

 

[Brandon McHenry]

But I have many fish , like 4 tangs in a 75 (yes you heard it right) and I feed sometime like 6 cubes a day including nori) and still cannot register nitrates. So it like having zeovit outcome without the zeovit gear lol

Ok so if you are feeding multiple fish multiple times per day (frozen, nori, pellets, etc) then I see no problem with having low N/P. That’s exactly my point. If your corals are becoming more and more pale until they are white or peeling from the bottom up then I don’t think it matters what your N/P are. I think those are numbers that people get too hung up on. Feed your tank well and match your export levels so you don’t have a buildup of harmful waste products and most likely you will find success. A well fed reef is far better than a starved one.

What about the alkalinity testing and dosing?