Purple tang with ich (plz help)

[domination2580]

Velvet has smaller spots and they're far more numerous. It also advances much, much faster. A fish covered in velvet will be fully infested fast. Often in very severe cases looking dusty. Fish with velvet tend to be more cryptic, hide from light, swim in to powerheads, discolor towards the end with gill damage, and die quickly. This is the most dangerous/deadly parasite in the hobby.

Ich is a larger white spot, far fewer. A fish is almost never "covered" in ich. It's still very deadly but much slower moving taking months sometimes to reach critical mass.

With both a fish will breathe heavily. Velvet is every bit as common as ich now.

Many mistake the two, some say they had a really bad ich infestation but in reality it was velvet. That was me for years. Now I can see the difference and I know the behaviors and progression.

Hear hear!

 

[creektree]

If it's not ich, then let's define it as such... per what the owner of this fish can see. I think one problem is that you have folks that have posted 1500 times in two years or so, with what I'm sure is a wealth of real life experience, yet have never actually brought a purple tang back from ich and kept if happy for years. My oldest marine fish is 16 years old right now, so while not in its twenties yet, I'm not sure if I qualify as a casual reader. Maybe I am. My post count would certainly say so...

If you can save a fish by treatment, then absolutely do it. Again, preventative measures are always the best path. Though if you can't get the fish out, and it truly is just ich, there are ways as discussed in this string. if it's velvet, treatment will be necessary. Best wishes to all... and especially the original poster for this string. I hope your purple tang makes it through as mine did.

 

[mcarroll]

Last time we circled this wagon, we all realized that you nor Paul have tangs or angels, or otherwise fragile species.

Now you're just making things up to suite the argument you're trying to make but let's go through this anyway.

Paul doesn't keep Tangs because he finds them boring.
(Quote: A discussion on immunity)

He keeps plenty of hard-to-keep/delicate fish though. He has some of them pregnant most of the time according to the pictures he posts. Like here.

I don't keep Tangs because I have the good sense not to. I keep two 36" tanks at home, and I'm mostly a coral nut.



However, I spent some years taking care of Tangs in saltwater retail and in the course of taking care of other peoples' tanks.

I'm not claiming to be an expert (and I'm practically retired to parenthood for now), but you may consider me at least to be familiar with the game of acquiring tangs and keeping them alive.

Hopefully I'm allowed to bring the conversation around to nutrition and stress now.

If you wanted to recreate Paul's success, you would need to do everything he does.

If you take some of his ideas, you can have some of his success.

That's certainly how he developed his system – a piece or idea at a time, making mistakes along the way. Aka learning by experience.

Nothing good happens fast in a reef...trying to duplicate Paul's whole reef experience would seem to fall under that rule.

If you take care to implement his ideas at the same rate that you understand them – at the same rate that you understand how they might apply to your system – you would be fine.

Suggesting that someone take time like that could make someone ask:
Is "Going Slow" The Most Controversial Reefing Topic?

I think it's obviously true that there are parts of Paul's methods that someone could adopt and improve their own fish-keeping.

Maybe you don't like his book or just haven't read it, but it's literally full of ideas meant to make us better fish keepers – ideas he uses to be a better fish keeper.

His baby brine shrimp feeder design or blackworm keeper jump to mind. The idea of using frozen, whole clams to feed even smaller fish. Plenty of others too.

 

[mcarroll]

What is the difference between ich and velvet? How can you tell the difference ?

You have to make do with what you have of course....if photo-ID is the best you can do then the links provided earlier in the thread may help. It can still be tough when you only have one example fish to look at though.

For what it's worth, the experts say that both species of dinoflagellate (ich and velvet) are hard to distinguish from one another without a microscope.

You won't generally find a whole lot of encouragement to get and use a microscope around here, but I'd highly recommend getting at least a cheap one if you plan to be serious about keeping fish. Even a cheap jewler's loupe can be helpful.

If you can catch the fish and get a scraping/sample, then you have the potential for a positive ID.

From the Velvet guide linked below:

"Fish should be examined when they enter quarantine and periodically while in quarantine. Examination should include collecting biopsy specimens from gills, skin and fins. Any fish that dies in quarantine should be subjected to a thorough necropsy." @Paul B is the only one here I know of who's been down this road and could offer advice if you want to try too.​

Positive ID changes everything in terms of treatment, allowing you to to take the correct, targeted approach vs the usual shotgun/hope-and-pray approach.

Some more reading if you're up for it (sorry if any are repeats):

Velvet: SRAC 4705: Amyloodinium ocellatum, an Important Parasite of Cultured Marine Fish
Ich: FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot ...
General: FA165/FA165: Use of Copper in Marine Aquaculture and Aquarium ...​

Here's a really interesting tidbit from the Velvet guide I just picked up on re-read:

"[Researchers] made the serendipitous observation that magnesium may affect the survival of
[velvet] in recirculating systems. Tomonts produced by trophonts cultured in vitro in magnesium-deficient salt water appeared normal but did not divide. The researchers speculated that it may be possible to inhibit the tomont’s reproduction with artificial sea water."​

 

[cmcoker]

What is the difference between ich and velvet? How can you tell the difference ?

Miguel have you been able to take a look at the pictures and compare to what you are seeing on your tang?

Also wanted to say welcome to reef2reef, I noticed you joined fairly recently. I'd like to add that most posts asking for help don't usually devolve into what I've seen on your thread... I hope you are not too overwhelmed with the responses you have received, or put off by responses not directed at you. This really is one of the best forums around for help on all things reef aquarium related.

 

[Humblefish]

ICH​

​

VELVET​

​

 

[Reefltx]

Yep, the big the difference velvet almost have a dusty look and it covers the fish fast!

With ich, you could pretty much count the dots.

I have a green Chromis as a buddy for my purple tang in the QT tank and it pasted a few hours ago. The tang looks like it's trying to hang on, but I know it's chances are slim. I hope you have better luck with yours OP.

 

[4FordFamily]

@mcarroll, the reason for not keeping tangs is not relevant. The point is that neither of you keep these more fragile types of fish anymore. Years ago I practiced ich management on many types of tangs (except acanthurus) successfully. Today's environment with the spread of velvet and other factors is quite different.

 

[mcarroll]

@mcarroll, the reason for not keeping tangs is not relevant.

Yes, not relevant. You brought it up, so I'll be quick to agree here.

Let's recall how this started. (I'll summarize.)

OP: "Fish with spots. Help."
You: "Try QT and copper."
Me: "Don't forget to think about later too."
OP: "I don't have a QT."

How do you (and company) manage to spiral that line of discussion into a negative tangent like this?

 

[4FordFamily]

Yes, not relevant. You brought it up, so I'll be quick to agree here.

Let's recall how this started. (I'll summarize.)

OP: "Fish with spots. Help."
You: "Try QT and copper."
Me: "Don't forget to think about later too."
OP: "I don't have a QT."

How do you (and company) manage to spiral that line of discussion into a negative tangent like this?

What I don't understand, with all due respect, is how you feel that the type of fish you keep is irrelevant to the care requirements?

I can't think of a more relevant factor.

That's akin to saying the horsepower and torque of a car is irrelevant for racing.

Also, after giving this much thought, I think I came up with a solution for being without a QT:

Buy one.

It's a necessity in today's environment.

 

[Humblefish]

How do you (and company) manage to spiral that line of discussion into a negative tangent like this?

Here's the thing: You advocate proper nutrition and that's very important for all living things! Nobody can deny that.

You also seem to suggest that proper nutrition, in and of itself, can prevent a fish from getting sick. That may be somewhat true in the wide open ocean, but I highly doubt it in a closed system aquarium.

But even if it were true ... By the time the problem reaches the fish disease forum, typically the first post of the thread starts off with EMERGENCY EMERGENCY FISH ARE DYING. All the live, non-processed, vitamin enriched food in the world isn't going to suddenly reverse that. It's time for meds.

It's like somebody going to the hospital with chest pains, told a heart attack is imminent, and then sent to go see a nutritionist. A healthy diet and lifestyle change are things that should have started years ago to fight cardiovascular disease, and will be discussed with the patient after the surgery + meds to stabilize them. That's one of our primary responsibilities here, to help members in a crisis save as many fish as they can. We also discuss preventative QT and proper nutrition to keep the bugs away in the first place.

 

[Maritimer]

... It's like somebody going to the hospital with chest pains, told a heart attack is imminent, and then sent to go see a nutritionist. A healthy diet and lifestyle change are things that should have started years ago to fight cardiovascular disease, and will be discussed with the patient after the surgery + meds to stabilize them. That's one of our primary responsibilities here, to help members in a crisis save as many fish as they can. We also discuss preventative QT and proper nutrition to keep the bugs away in the first place.

Indeed. In fact, any physician who advised a patient in that situation to "go see a nutritionist" would probably (and rightfully) be brought up on charges.

~Bruce

 

[mcarroll]

I still don't understand the resistance to this info. You say it's undeniable and then spend four paragraphs denying it's place in the discussion.

You're all making up angles than have nothing to do with this thread for what? To get me not to participate? I still don't understand your point since you're agreeing with what I originally posted.

I don't understand how any of this is supposed to help the thread or the OP....is there a reason you aren't PM'ing all this to me instead of going so far off topic?

Nobody suggested any of the things that 4ford imagined.

Nobody except the OP suggested avoiding the recommended treatment.

 

[4FordFamily]

BTW, if you've never saved a fish with good feeding and healthy, low-stress living conditions, you're missing out BIG TIME. It's almost the only "method" I've used – even in a retail setting. Losses were consistently low and almost always related to a compromised bag during shipping...

I'm not sure how the casual reader could interpret this any way other than fish can be saved as you describe. It's not even certain that this is an attainable way to do things for most hobbyists to prevent disease. Velvet? Won't be enough.

I also don't know why you weighed in to a thread about a diseased fish with "please help" in the title-- with an obviously very sick fish to discuss proper nutrition if it is not a solution to the op's issue at hand? (And I agree it is not)

Maybe I am missing something?

 

[mcarroll]

Please continue to mix and match quotes to serve your narrative. You're good at it.

 

[Humblefish]

I still don't understand the resistance to this info. You say it's undeniable and then spend four paragraphs denying it's place in the discussion.

You're all making up angles than have nothing to do with this thread for what? To get me not to participate? I still don't understand your point since you're agreeing with what I originally posted.

I don't understand how any of this is supposed to help the thread or the OP....is there a reason you aren't PM'ing all this to me instead of going so far off topic?

Nobody suggested any of the things that 4ford imagined.

Nobody except the OP suggested avoiding the recommended treatment.

In the third response to this thread you immediately start talking about a stress-free environment and offering high quality food: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/purple-tang-with-ich-plz-help.295101/#post-3606184

To quote your very first sentence in that reply:

What's the recommended plan to keep these fish healthy in the first place/to keep them from getting re-infected by this or something else later on?

The problem is the OP has already indicated his tang has white spots, so the fish is already sick. This goes back to my curing a heart attack with nutrition comment. That needed to happen before the white spots or after the disease has been properly treated. R2R has an Aquarium Nutrition forum that would greatly benefit from your particular expertise: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/aquarium-nutrition.922/

If you wish to give people false hope that their sick fish can be cured by simply maintaining a stress free environment coupled with proper nutrition, I certainly won't stop you. This is a free & open forum. But you are doing our members a great disservice by dangling "the easy way out" in front of them when their fish are faced with a potential life threatening pathogen.

 

[Empress]

Mcarroll, next time you become deathly ill, eat a healthy salad . See if that cures your problem.

Sorry, but I just HAD to chime in my 2cents because this topic keeps getting funnier and funnier with every reply. And eating carrots won't correct your eyesight. Happy Easter. [emoji214]

 

[4FordFamily]

In the third response to this thread you immediately start talking about a stress-free environment and offering high quality food: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/purple-tang-with-ich-plz-help.295101/#post-3606184

To quote your very first sentence in that reply:


The problem is the OP has already indicated his tang has white spots, so the fish is already sick. This goes back to my curing a heart attack with nutrition comment. That needed to happen before the white spots or after the disease has been properly treated. R2R has an Aquarium Nutrition forum that would greatly benefit from your particular expertise: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/aquarium-nutrition.922/

If you wish to give people false hope that their sick fish can be cured by simply maintaining a stress free environment coupled with proper nutrition, I certainly won't stop you. This is a free & open forum. But you are doing our members a great disservice by dangling "the easy way out" in front of them when their fish are faced with a potential life threatening pathogen.

This could not have been better said.