QT transfer woes

[Squirrel_reefer]

So sadly I just lost one of my fish, a neon dottyback and I'm afraid I might lose a six line wrasse as well. Here's the long and short of it.

5 weeks ago I put 6 fish into a hospital tank because I took home a blue tang and surprise be had the ich. So within 2 days all the fish I had were moved into the QT and I began with the copper treatments. Sadly I had a diamond goby that jumped out in the middle of the night (the tank has a lid but it only covers about 80%)

Everything seemed to be going fine. None of the uninfected fish ever showed any symptoms and after a week or two the tang started to look better and his color came back. I did weekly wtaer changes of 5 gal (the tank is 20g) and the water chemistry never acted up. All the fish seemed healthy as they were active and never turned down anything at feedings. The out look was good.

Now this evening, I took each fish and gave it a quick freshwater dip (1-2 min depending on fish size) just to be super safe before returning them to my DT. I checked the parameters again to see where they were at and while the QT was not on par with the DT they were all near as makes no difference. After each fish had his dip, he went back into the QT to await transfer.

My neon dottyback back and my royal gramma were up first. I opted for an external speciemen container with a drip acclimation to eliminate any copper water from entering my DT system. Both fish seemed fine however towards the end of the hour the dottyback seemed lethargic. I figured this was just him being in the container and trying to lay still as a defense mechanism. However after I poured him and the basslet into the net and into the DT he was bellyup with in 2 minutes, as soon as he hit the water he was stiff as a board and breathing super heavy. At first I thought this was just from stress and shock from being chased around in the QT by my net because the basslet seems fine.

However ... Afterwards I loaded up my cardinal and my six line and 30 min into the same drip acclimation the wrasse was laying on his side panting. He was very unresponsive while the cardinal was completely unphased. I released both fish into the DT not knowing what else to do and while the cardinal looks fine the wrasse has spent the last 45 min huffing and puffing on the sandbed.


what the heck did I do to my fish?!?! All fish seemed fine after their freshwater dip and they were active upto the point I drip acclimated them, I would say that's it but half the fish were completely fine. Please help!

 

[melypr1985]

How long were the fish in Copper total? At what level did you keep the copper at and what kind did you use? Did you use any ammonia detoxifiers (ex. prime) during this process at all? Is there anything else in this process you might have left out? Any pictures at all?

 

[Squirrel_reefer]

So total copper time was 4 weeks. When I first dosed I used the directed amount, and every time I did my weekly water change I dosed with the recommended amount only adjusted for the 5 gals and minus 10% except for the last water change at the end of week 4 I did not add copper, and for top offs I would add a jar of fresh water. At the end of week 4 I added carbon rocks to the HOB to begin weening off of the copper levels in the water and all the while I was using prime, I used prime in the water changes and every once in a while I would drop in few drops using a pipette. I wish I had some pics but my phone camera is KIA but the wrasse doesn't show any visual queues, and the dottyback and the wrasse both jad good slimecoat and color as far as i could tell. The copper was Cooperaid brand I believe but I'm not sure so I'll have to check tomorrow.

 

[Humblefish]

One possibility: You said both fish were in a specimen container for one hour while you performed the drip acclimation. Did you provide any oxygen while the fish were being acclimated? Under normal circumstances this might not be an issue but copper robs O2 from the water, and if the specimen container was small it's possible they simply ran out of O2 in there.

 

[Squirrel_reefer]

One possibility: You said both fish were in a specimen container for one hour while you performed the drip acclimation. Did you provide any oxygen while the fish were being acclimated? Under normal circumstances this might not be an issue but copper robs O2 from the water, and if the specimen container was small it's possible they simply ran out of O2 in there.

I did not know that! The speciemen container was about 1/4 full of QT water, because I usually like to acclimate on a 25/75 basis. So the only source of oxygen was the incoming water, which I have to say is highly airated but a lack of oxygen would explain the heavy breathing

 

[Squirrel_reefer]

UPDATE:

Last night right before I posted this, my girlfriend asked me to toss the wrasse back into the QT without any acclimation (saying I was hesitant is an understatement) but! This morning when I went downstairs to check and see if he passed, the little f***er was bright eyed and bushy tailed! and even darted around the tank when he saw me. He was breathing normally and the white lines had returned to his eyes. I forgot to mention that while he was laying on the sand bed panting, his eyes lost all color and went to a frightening blood red.

My basslet and my cardinal are both looking fine and to the best of my judgment they have not suffered any problems

what in the heck is wrong, I can't find the common denominator

 

[aquamn1999]

Just an FYI if your DT had ich and you only let it run fallow for 5 weeks there is a chance that ich is still in your tank and will rear it's head when you add more fish. You need to let it sit fallow for 11 weeks.

 

[Squirrel_reefer]

Just an FYI if your DT had ich and you only let it run fallow for 5 weeks there is a chance that ich is still in your tank and will rear it's head when you add more fish. You need to let it sit fallow for 11 weeks.

Yes I understand that there is a chance that the Ich will return. However there are 1000 ways to skin a cat and I have heard a lot over the course of this infection. The exposure of ich to the DT was less than 48 hours and none of my other fish ever showed symptoms, while in DT or QT. My LFS and most other sources have said 4-6 weeks is sufficient. I understand you are probably right but its all about risk and how much of it I am willing to accept.

 

[Humblefish]

Last night right before I posted this, my girlfriend asked me to toss the wrasse back into the QT without any acclimation (saying I was hesitant is an understatement) but! This morning when I went downstairs to check and see if he passed, the little f***er was bright eyed and bushy tailed! and even darted around the tank when he saw me. He was breathing normally and the white lines had returned to his eyes. I forgot to mention that while he was laying on the sand bed panting, his eyes lost all color and went to a frightening blood red.

The next time someone tells me that a fish is better off in the DT than a QT, I'm gonna refer them back to this post.

My basslet and my cardinal are both looking fine and to the best of my judgment they have not suffered any problems

Both of these are currently in the DT, correct? Wrasses can display pretty strange behavior sometimes, or if my lack of O2 theory is correct then maybe the wrasse just needed time to catch his breath.

 

[Squirrel_reefer]

The next time someone tells me that a fish is better off in the DT than a QT, I'm gonna refer them back to this post.



Both of these are currently in the DT, correct? Wrasses can display pretty strange behavior sometimes, or if my lack of O2 theory is correct then maybe the wrasse just needed time to catch his breath.

Yes both of the Cardinal and the Basslet are in the DT and they are doing fine, when i turned the light on this AM the both came out looking for food. This afternoon I am going to have to go to my LFS to ask around, the owner is very friendly and has ~20 years in hobby.

The wrasse is really starting to worry me though, I was going over a mental list of things that could possible be the issue and the one that stands out most to me was salinity shock. however there is only a difference of QT- 1.025 SG and DT- 1.023 SG. So if it was salinity shock then he would have for sure died when I chucked him back into the QT without an acclimation. At this point I am considering all options including the O2 issue, but mostly I am just scratching my head.

also I do have an airstone in my refugium that I attributed to the aeration of the water, perhaps if I try to drip acclimate him soon I will use a 5 gal bucket and use the airstone

 

[Humblefish]

Going from 1.025 to 1.023 wouldn't be a problem for most fish. They handle going down in salinity just fine. It's going up they can sometimes have a problem with.

 

[omykiss001]

I'm sure there is probably not an issue with your tank parameters, but can you post what your DT is we know salinity is 1.023
What about ammonia, nitrite, nitrate
pH
alk
anything else you dose or use?

This is a head scratcher for sure just trying to think in a DT what would cause such symptoms. Ammonia would come to mind, but would assume the tank is well cycled and that is unlikely. You did state you used prime with copper, but did not see any negative side effects?? Still wonder if you add prime to your DT could you have an ammonia spike as you diluted in the bucket with copper?? Mostly just thinking out loud here for causation.

Weird!!

 

[Squirrel_reefer]

I'm sure there is probably not an issue with your tank parameters, but can you post what your DT is we know salinity is 1.023
What about ammonia, nitrite, nitrate
pH
alk
anything else you dose or use?

This is a head scratcher for sure just trying to think in a DT what would cause such symptoms. Ammonia would come to mind, but would assume the tank is well cycled and that is unlikely. You did state you used prime with copper, but did not see any negative side effects?? Still wonder if you add prime to your DT could you have an ammonia spike as you diluted in the bucket with copper?? Mostly just thinking out loud here for causation.

Weird!!

I can run a full water test tonight to get a handle on all the parameters. I run Cheato in my refugium so my Nitrates and Phos levels are almost unmeasurable with the test kit I have, I do not test for ammonia, simply because I don't have a kit. I will say I have several softies, two colonies of Zoas (rasta and red hornet) and a Condy anemone that are all thriving so I feel like any ammonia problems would have shown by now. Also I dose a small amount of prime into the DT about once a month, even before the fish went out

 

[Squirrel_reefer]

So took a trip to LFS yesterday afternoon to bounce this situation off the owner. He listened intently to the long winded story and spent about 10 straight minutes mumbling to himself and scratching his head lol. He told me that there is a possibility the Ich had weakened both fishes immune systems enough to be shock, but he said more than likely there was some trace of chemical or cleaner left in either the specimen container or the glass bowl (more likely this) that stressed the fish due to their weakened immune systems. He also said that the Ich can cause a fishes gills to swell even though they may not show any other symptoms. He also said the damage is irreversible once its done, which would explain the heavy breathing of the wrasse, once he was stressed he couldn't catch his breath.

The specimen container i used i only wash with warm tap water and no soap so I don't think it was that but the glass bowl had been run through the dishwasher so that is the only thing that it could be. however after each fish had his turn in the dip, I would rinse out the bowl and add fresh RODI water. He said the trace of dish soap could be the only thing that would make such tough and hardy fish keel over. So I don't know if it was simply this or a combination of a million little things, but for now all the fish in both QT and DT are fine where they are so I'll leave the wrasse to recover his strength and then one more try at DT acclimation.

 

[Humblefish]

Your LFS owner may be right about the soap residue. I try to only use vinegar to clean all my fish stuff, as that is safe even if some residue gets left behind (some even dose vinegar after all .) If I do use bleach to sterilize, I rinse thoroughly afterwards and allow enough drying time (many days) so that any residue converts back to salt.

 

[Salty1962]

I also use vinegar and coarse sea salt.
Rinse in RO water.
Good luck on your recovery!

 

[robert]

IMHO cardiac arrest caused by osmotic shock cannot be ruled out - I understand the logic of the last fresh water dip - probably not a good idea.
Copper is know to cause systematic osmotic stress and imbalance - greatly interfering with the fishes ability to cope with changes in salinity and ammonia excretion. Just throwing this out there.

Did you do a freshwater dip on the two that survived?

 

[robert]

Loss of osmotic balance description:

"Death is not necessarily immediate. Typically, the fish lose balance 1 to 2 hours prior to death by rolling onto their backs, and their ventilation becomes rapid and shallow. Ventilation ceases before they develop cardiac arrest."

 

[reynaldoramon]

This is gonna be random....what kind of vinegar does everyone use to clean? Just plain old white vinegar? Always read how people use vinegar to clean. Just always wondered what kind.

 

[Humblefish]

Just plain old white vinegar

^^This. Do a 10:1 (water:vinegar) solution. Works break for breaking down crud and helping to remove coralline algae. Just don't let it soak for too long, as some parts & pieces (like rubber) tend to disintegrate in vinegar.