QT transfer woes

Squirrel_reefer · Feb 16, 2016

robert said:
IMHO cardiac arrest caused by osmotic shock cannot be ruled out - I understand the logic of the last fresh water dip - probably not a good idea.
Copper is know to cause systematic osmotic stress and imbalance - greatly interfering with the fishes ability to cope with changes in salinity and ammonia excretion. Just throwing this out there.

Did you do a freshwater dip on the two that survived?

So I did a Freshwater dip on all the fish, and changed out the RODI water each time a new fish went in.

Also since I did not have a way to test for copper, I frequently under dosed it and the last week I added a lot of active carbon rocks to the HOB filter to start weening out the copper, however the only fish in there during this process was the wrasse and tang (post incident of course)

The good news is, I just placed the Wrasse and the Tang back into the DT this past weekend. I wanted the Tang to simmer a while longer then the other fish in the QT since he was the carrier, and I wanted to give the Wrasse a week to recover and relax before attempting to move him. The Tang seemed to be very happy to be back in his original home and immediately started to bond with a large Fire Shrimp I put in the tank a few days prior. His color was 121,243,234 times better under my DT lighting and I was beyond pleased with him.

The Wrasse however....was fine! this time I floated the specimen container in the QT and added water slowly over the course of 60 minutes. I floated the container because my LFS said I couldnt rule out temp shock from the last time I drip acclimated him, he stated that even a small change in temp inside the container could be harmful. So after the 60 min I plopped him into the DT and the rest is history. my only regret is that my royal gramma got the best hiding spot in the tank and he will get snippy with the wrasse if he comes sniffing around.

>So I used all the same stuff to acclimate both fish as the last run ( I only have one set of stuff so) and the only variable that has changed is the glass bowl I did the dip in. I never clean any of my reefing gear with soap or bleach and I guess the glass bowl was just a lapse in judgement or lack thereof on my part when dipping the fish. At this point I am not ruling out anything listed in the posts above though.

I want to thank everyone for their input, this has been a great learning experience for me (my only saddness is that it cost me a good looking Neon Dottyback and a Diamond Goby) I guess i believed I was an experienced reefer... till I wasn't

dankreef · Feb 17, 2016

I have had this happen to me as well. The thing that I took out of the process that works for me is the FWD. Personal opinion that if the water isn't really close to the same ph and temp it really stresses the fish out. I personally don't see any reason to FWD anything. Between meds and TTM I've been alright. I've FWD twice and lost fish both times.

Some people really like it, but if you do your research on Ick thats the only way to beat it, you have to understand how it works.

dankreef · Feb 17, 2016

I have had this happen to me as well. The thing that I took out of the process that works for me is the FWD. Personal opinion that if the water isn't really close to the same ph and temp it really stresses the fish out. I personally don't see any reason to FWD anything. Between meds and TTM I've been alright. I've FWD twice and lost fish both times.

Some people really like it, but if you do your research on Ick thats the only way to beat it, you have to understand how it works.

Squirrel_reefer · Feb 17, 2016

dankreef said:
I have had this happen to me as well. The thing that I took out of the process that works for me is the FWD. Personal opinion that if the water isn't really close to the same ph and temp it really stresses the fish out. I personally don't see any reason to FWD anything. Between meds and TTM I've been alright. I've FWD twice and lost fish both times. Some people really like it, but if you do your research on Ick thats the only way to beat it, you have to understand how it works.

Yea man after this experience, I dont think I will be dipping any fish again, especially since most of the fish were asymptomatic in the first place. I'm assuming the dip process was more stressful than the ich

Squirrel_reefer · Feb 17, 2016

dankreef said:
I have had this happen to me as well. The thing that I took out of the process that works for me is the FWD. Personal opinion that if the water isn't really close to the same ph and temp it really stresses the fish out. I personally don't see any reason to FWD anything. Between meds and TTM I've been alright. I've FWD twice and lost fish both times. Some people really like it, but if you do your research on Ick thats the only way to beat it, you have to understand how it works.

Yea man after this experience, I dont think I will be dipping any fish again, especially since most of the fish were asymptomatic in the first place. I'm assuming the dip process was more stressful than the ich

RMAS0934 · Feb 22, 2016

Just out of curiosity, could the prime mixed with copperaid have caused any of this? I am in the process of my first qt and this was one thing I was told many times on this forum...do not mix prime with copper. It looked like one of the early posts mentioned that prime was used in the water changes, and throughout. Just curious as I am learning myself!

Squirrel_reefer · Feb 23, 2016

RMAS0934 said:
Just out of curiosity, could the prime mixed with copperaid have caused any of this? I am in the process of my first qt and this was one thing I was told many times on this forum...do not mix prime with copper. It looked like one of the early posts mentioned that prime was used in the water changes, and throughout. Just curious as I am learning myself!

I personally have never heard that, if it has been said, then I can only give you the anecdotal evidence that most of my fish are still alive after 5 weeks of this practice.

Humblefish · Feb 23, 2016

Squirrel_reefer said:
I personally have never heard that, if it has been said, then I can only give you the anecdotal evidence that most of my fish are still alive after 5 weeks of this practice.

Was this the product that you used: http://www.kordon.com/kordon/products/chemical-preventatives-and-treatments-2/copper-aid

Squirrel_reefer · Feb 23, 2016

That is the one

jaws789832 · Feb 23, 2016

You definitely should NOT use prime with copper. I called seachem on this and they said it makes the copper more toxic. If you do use it wait at least 24 hours (what they said) before adding copper. They said the prime has done its thing and dissipates in 24 hours. I personally would wait a lot longer than that though to be sure.

Squirrel_reefer · Feb 23, 2016

jaws789832 said:
You definitely should NOT use prime with copper. I called seachem on this and they said it makes the copper more toxic. If you do use it wait at least 24 hours (what they said) before adding copper. They said the prime has done its thing and dissipates in 24 hours. I personally would wait a lot longer than that though to be sure.

Well Like I said, all I have is the anecdotal evidence of my experience. Is there any evidence to show what you're talking about (Im just curious not giving you a hard time) like specific changes in the water chemistry or any known reactions that take place when the two are mixed? just saying it makes the copper "more toxic" is just too vague for my skepticism, is there a specific reaction that produces a more toxic copper ion? Again do not take offense to this I am not saying youre wrong I just want to understand

RMAS0934 · Feb 23, 2016

From what i understand (and others will be much more able to explain in more detail than myself), Prime is a reducing agent. When combined with copper it has the potential to reduce the copper from a safe form to a more toxic form. Also found this info...
When adding a reducing agent, the Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+ which is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.

Squirrel_reefer · Feb 23, 2016

RMAS0934 said:
From what i understand (and others will be much more able to explain in more detail than myself), Prime is a reducing agent. When combined with copper it has the potential to reduce the copper from a safe form to a more toxic form. Also found this info...
When adding a reducing agent, the Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+ which is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.

this is the info I was looking for

Humblefish · Feb 23, 2016

So here are some conclusions I have reached, purely through anecdotal evidence:

Cupramine and other ionic forms of copper are turned toxic when mixed with an ammonia reducer. I believe it increases the copper toxicity 10x. I suspect pure copper sulfate would have the same interaction issues, as that is also low range copper.

However, there is something different about chelated copper (exs. Coppersafe, Copper Power, and the aforementioned Copper-AID) which does not cause these same interaction issues. I'm sure @Randy Holmes-Farley understands the chemistry about it and can explain it better than me.

Squirrel_reefer · Feb 23, 2016

Humblefish said:
So here are some conclusions I have reached, purely through anecdotal evidence:

Cupramine and other ionic forms of copper are turned toxic when mixed with an ammonia reducer. I believe it increases the copper toxicity 10x. I suspect pure copper sulfate would have the same interaction issues, as that is also low range copper.

However, there is something different about chelated copper (exs. Coppersafe, Copper Power, and the aforementioned Copper-AID) which does not cause these same interaction issues. I'm sure @Randy Holmes-Farley understands the chemistry about it and can explain it better than me.

I am really just trying to put 2 & 2 together here to figure out what happened. I would be very interested to see what others have to say, and again I appreciate all feedback. IF ONLY FISH COULD TALK!

jaws789832 · Feb 23, 2016

RMAS0934 said:
From what i understand (and others will be much more able to explain in more detail than myself), Prime is a reducing agent. When combined with copper it has the potential to reduce the copper from a safe form to a more toxic form. Also found this info...
When adding a reducing agent, the Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+ which is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.

That's exactly what seachem told me (makers of cuprimine and Prime). They said you shouldn't add prime for the reasons stated above. Whether its true or not I don't know but I figured its their products so they should know a little more than me about them.

RMAS0934 · Feb 23, 2016

I do know that there is difference between ionic and chelated copper, which would be what Humble Fish explained above, I'm just not sure how prime would affect each type differently.

omykiss001 · Feb 23, 2016

Humblefish said:
So here are some conclusions I have reached, purely through anecdotal evidence:

Cupramine and other ionic forms of copper are turned toxic when mixed with an ammonia reducer. I believe it increases the copper toxicity 10x. I suspect pure copper sulfate would have the same interaction issues, as that is also low range copper.

However, there is something different about chelated copper (exs. Coppersafe, Copper Power, and the aforementioned Copper-AID) which does not cause these same interaction issues. I'm sure @Randy Holmes-Farley understands the chemistry about it and can explain it better than me.

My guess and would be interested in Randy's thoughts as well is the chelating agent protects the copper from being reduced to Cu+ by additives like prime. This is really what the chelating agent does is bind the copper and keep it from reacting so rapidly be it with parasite, fish or other compounds like carbonate etc. so there is always some amount of ionic copper present that is acting as the therapeutic agent while keeping it below toxic levels and keeping a store of potential ionic copper. There are many chelators that exist I suspect they use one that does not bind as tightly to the copper so there is an equilibrium of ionic to chelated copper in solution.