Mywifeisgunnakillme
Valuable Member
If tsmaquatics qt's then they probably have the same issues, but better qt tanks and less issues. I like the hobby aspect of qt'ing though, so i do it myself.
Quarantine poll
- Thread starter KGV
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If tsmaquatics qt's then they probably have the same issues, but better qt tanks and less issues. I like the hobby aspect of qt'ing though, so i do it myself.
Totally agree, although i have had nothing but great things to say about them, they even spoke to me about their QT protocol. I do believe that regardless from where the fish comes from i always atleast put it in QT to visualize.
Mywifeisgunnakillme
Valuable Member
I agree with all that--except "Learning to QT is long and complicated." Compared to keeping corals and a tank healthy for years on end--learning to dose copperpower and read hanna and do some water changes is pretty dang easy. Especially since you can just post videos online and get instant help.
fragit
2500 Club Member
I’ve had similar problems. I have ordered from oceandevotionla.com and had a good experience Adam is a great guy. I’m giving TSM a try this time as they are east coast too and I want to mitigate shipping issues.
Squidward
Valuable Member
I personally think an observation tank is a waste of time. I do TTM and prazipro for almost every fish. All who've made it thru this protocol have been successful except some chromis who killed each other.
OP
OP
KGV
Active Member
Exactly, it’s not easy. And we’re so often winging it when it comes down to sick or not, and what disease. Luckily there are pro folks like @Jay Hemdal and others. The problem is that QT’ing not just following a protocol. Depending on the type of fish and its history, QT’ing requires almost constant tweaking IMO.
Mywifeisgunnakillme
Valuable Member
If you spend a little money and set up something like this, read up before buying fish, you"ll have success qt'ing.
If not willing to do that, IMO, just buy pre qt'd fish. Mass fish death from sick fish in a display causes more people to vacate this hobby than anything...
Edit: a little UV, e.g., green killing machine, will control a new fish with ich in combination with water changes and copperpower.
Knowing how to care for fish IMO is just part of this hobby...
Edit #2: your wife might kill you if do this without her permission though, lol.
If not willing to do that, IMO, just buy pre qt'd fish. Mass fish death from sick fish in a display causes more people to vacate this hobby than anything...
Edit: a little UV, e.g., green killing machine, will control a new fish with ich in combination with water changes and copperpower.
Knowing how to care for fish IMO is just part of this hobby...
Edit #2: your wife might kill you if do this without her permission though, lol.
Last edited:
I used to do observation but some stuff still sneaks through, ich or internal stuff mostly. I am planning to upgrade and wanted to clean slate so everything is getting hybrid TTM, treated for internal parasites and then observed. The display tank did 45 day fallow at 81.
This is my current observational tank after hybrid TTM. I actually use tap water and prime for it all without any problems. Saves on water and time but everyone’s water is different. The tang had an eye infection start only two days after purchase but cleared up quickly with antibiotic dips during TTM. These guys are smashing the food.
I also have a messy fishless frag tank to QT corals and inverts for 45 days at 80 degrees. It has some organizational issues lol
This is my current observational tank after hybrid TTM. I actually use tap water and prime for it all without any problems. Saves on water and time but everyone’s water is different. The tang had an eye infection start only two days after purchase but cleared up quickly with antibiotic dips during TTM. These guys are smashing the food.
I also have a messy fishless frag tank to QT corals and inverts for 45 days at 80 degrees. It has some organizational issues lol
Joe Rice
Active Member
For me, 90% of the reason to quarantine is to protect the inhabitants of my main tank.
Keeping a new arrival in a separate fully-cycled observation/conditioning tank for three months, seems like it would surface the vast majority of diseases the fish might be carrying, would allow the fish to recover from the capture/shipment stress and would allow it to get used to the food you'll be feeding it without having to compete with other tank inhabitants.
Hardly seems like a waste of time to me, it's a lot less work than TTM (yes, I'm lazy) and seems like it would be a lot less stressful for the fish.
Mywifeisgunnakillme
Valuable Member
this is fantastic info as I don’t always know what regions I should buy fish from.
RobB'z Reef
2500 Club Member
Same, I'm all onboard with the hybrid TTM from here on out.I used to do observation but some stuff still sneaks through, ich or internal stuff mostly. I am planning to upgrade and wanted to clean slate so everything is getting hybrid TTM, treated for internal parasites and then observed. The display tank did 45 day fallow at 81.
This is my current observational tank after hybrid TTM. I actually use tap water and prime for it all without any problems. Saves on water and time but everyone’s water is different. The tang had an eye infection start only two days after purchase but cleared up quickly with antibiotic dips during TTM. These guys are smashing the food.
I also have a messy fishless frag tank to QT corals and inverts for 45 days at 80 degrees. It has some organizational issues lol
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
@Jay Hemdal I lub ya and I REALLY appreciate your insight, but I completely disagree with you here. Kamakazeee.
Everyone on this thread is going to be pro QT. I doubt there will be any dissent but me, and I will probably come to regret going against the orthodoxy once again. Here goes.
No QT means two things in people's minds. First I don't care and I just threw my fish in. This is what I will be smeared for. The second way which I actually practice is more thoughtful, but will be morphed into something I taken out of context, like a game of telephone.
This discussion is born of a base thinking. The two viewpoints on that thinking are maintain a sterile environment that only the things that I approve of enter or it's counter point is that the ocean is messy and I should look for biological competition and diversity. This is not to say that the two viewpoints don't have overlap in fact they do and that IMO is where the real discussion can take place.
Most people are aware of the sterile thinking, in fact at some level most have it. Even people that say they don't use QT. I used to have it so I get what is being said. I am not going to re-hash it here because I think it is well worn. Please do not say that I don't understand because I do, like I have said I have lived it and what I found over my 35 years of this is that it is less successful than a more natural approach.
I am going to speak to my approach because I don't want to put words or thoughts in the mouths or minds of other natural advocates, but I will say that many many many of the ideas that I use are rooted in the same thinking as those people.
First off no QT for me does not mean do nothing. That is entirely incorrect and I don't like being smeared with it. I have suggested many times to people having trouble to implement some of the ideas that I am using and they tell me that it is too hard and they aren't interested. Unfortunately they then go to a QT method to face a new set of challenges. THERE IS NO EASY WAY out of this!!!!!!!!
1. Gas exchange gas exchange gas exchange. This was the first thing that I observed to be key to no QT. I got this idea ultimately from my time in the Philippines. Here is what I saw on the "reef"
Guesses as to how many GPH this is? Mine is a lot, and I have gone with that. Over the years I have perfected how to get massive turn over without blowing everything around. You can see my build thread for what I have done if you are curious. My thought for the aquariums is huge surface agitation and surface skimming through overflows. This creates the best situation I have been able to come up with to ensure the air outside of the aquarium is in equilibrium. I would like to say use protein skimmers because their gas exchange is huge but they do other things that I don't like and that out weighs their awesome gas exchange.
Addendum to gas exchange is something that I have come to recently understand. It first came with the idea of ph being depressed from household CO2. I finally tested my household CO2 and I just about dropped dead with the amount of CO2 that is in the house. Once again you can see my build thread for the numbers and the solution. My conclusion was that if the household CO2 was high from the two humans in it, wouldn't it make sense that the O2 would be depressed? I went with this theory. I believe it is solid, and dovetails into my massive oxygen requirements.
Why I think elevated O2 is important for successful non-QT, or more importantly a successful aquarium. First off oxygen affects metabolism. Metabolism drives immune response. If you are being slowly suffocated it is hard for your body to fight infection, it is more concerned with basic function. I don't think most collectors distributors care about gas exchange because it adds capital costs that are hard to recoup. Second along the same lines, digestion is a huge consumer of resources in almost any creature. Lowered oxygen impedes digestive function at time that is most critical for the creature. Lastly most parasites are going to target the gills of fish. Because this is where the nutrients and fuel are at. This further impedes the fishes ability to uptake oxygen which affects the other two items. All of this creates a negatively reinforced spiral.
Next up in my thinking on non-QT is biological. This is a two part approach. The first thought is that active predation of parasites that fall off of the fish in a biodiverse tank helps limit the amount to re-infect. The goal isn't elimination the goal is load reduction. Leaving the parasite present but under-performing, which segues nicely into the next part that I have taken from @Paul B. That is inoculation through constant low level infection. This ensures that when a new fish with a high parasitic load is introduced to the tank the fish that are currently in the tank are most likely immune and can easily deal with the infection. I am aware of things that don't have free swimming stages are unaffected but that is where I fall back on gas exchange.
Finally meds. Medication has consequences both to the fish and the biome that they are introduced into. I think we are all aware of the biome problems, there are thoughts on how to deal with that, but little regard is taken on the damage done to the fish. We don't yet seem to have a good way to try to mitigate the effects the meds on the fish. IME the meds hit the fishes digestive tract ... HARD. This is the worst because most fish have endured lengthy transit as @Jay Hemdal pointed out. They usually don't eat and are medicated the entire trip. This means their reserves are depleted and just when they need food the most they can't process it. I believe that it can be so bad that as soon as the fish eats it's system will shut down and it will die.
Fish eat anything, why are they so picky in our tanks. I have vomited in seawater and fish came from seemingly nowhere to chow down. My wife as feed fish cheerios to get them to come out. My dormate in the Philippines would feed his net collected fish Tetra freshwater flake. All of this, and more, for me point to something being wrong with the fishes food intake when they arrive at our aquariums. I believe more specifically their digestion.
These are the two core prongs of my view of a non-QTed system, gas exchange and biodiversity. Also why eschew meds. I am not against them I just believe that there are cons and they should be weighed against the pros before being used. Too many are either unaware or nonchalant about the cons, and I find this infuriating. Are there exceptions in all of this ... of course yes as in any approach. I am not per se against the sterility thinking and the QT that comes with it, but what I have found in my time and experience is that that thinking produces fragile systems that are prone to crash. Will all QT'ed systems crash, I don't know, but my experience tells me that this is the case.
FWIW
Everyone on this thread is going to be pro QT. I doubt there will be any dissent but me, and I will probably come to regret going against the orthodoxy once again. Here goes.
No QT means two things in people's minds. First I don't care and I just threw my fish in. This is what I will be smeared for. The second way which I actually practice is more thoughtful, but will be morphed into something I taken out of context, like a game of telephone.
This discussion is born of a base thinking. The two viewpoints on that thinking are maintain a sterile environment that only the things that I approve of enter or it's counter point is that the ocean is messy and I should look for biological competition and diversity. This is not to say that the two viewpoints don't have overlap in fact they do and that IMO is where the real discussion can take place.
Most people are aware of the sterile thinking, in fact at some level most have it. Even people that say they don't use QT. I used to have it so I get what is being said. I am not going to re-hash it here because I think it is well worn. Please do not say that I don't understand because I do, like I have said I have lived it and what I found over my 35 years of this is that it is less successful than a more natural approach.
I am going to speak to my approach because I don't want to put words or thoughts in the mouths or minds of other natural advocates, but I will say that many many many of the ideas that I use are rooted in the same thinking as those people.
First off no QT for me does not mean do nothing. That is entirely incorrect and I don't like being smeared with it. I have suggested many times to people having trouble to implement some of the ideas that I am using and they tell me that it is too hard and they aren't interested. Unfortunately they then go to a QT method to face a new set of challenges. THERE IS NO EASY WAY out of this!!!!!!!!
1. Gas exchange gas exchange gas exchange. This was the first thing that I observed to be key to no QT. I got this idea ultimately from my time in the Philippines. Here is what I saw on the "reef"
Guesses as to how many GPH this is? Mine is a lot, and I have gone with that. Over the years I have perfected how to get massive turn over without blowing everything around. You can see my build thread for what I have done if you are curious. My thought for the aquariums is huge surface agitation and surface skimming through overflows. This creates the best situation I have been able to come up with to ensure the air outside of the aquarium is in equilibrium. I would like to say use protein skimmers because their gas exchange is huge but they do other things that I don't like and that out weighs their awesome gas exchange.
Addendum to gas exchange is something that I have come to recently understand. It first came with the idea of ph being depressed from household CO2. I finally tested my household CO2 and I just about dropped dead with the amount of CO2 that is in the house. Once again you can see my build thread for the numbers and the solution. My conclusion was that if the household CO2 was high from the two humans in it, wouldn't it make sense that the O2 would be depressed? I went with this theory. I believe it is solid, and dovetails into my massive oxygen requirements.
Why I think elevated O2 is important for successful non-QT, or more importantly a successful aquarium. First off oxygen affects metabolism. Metabolism drives immune response. If you are being slowly suffocated it is hard for your body to fight infection, it is more concerned with basic function. I don't think most collectors distributors care about gas exchange because it adds capital costs that are hard to recoup. Second along the same lines, digestion is a huge consumer of resources in almost any creature. Lowered oxygen impedes digestive function at time that is most critical for the creature. Lastly most parasites are going to target the gills of fish. Because this is where the nutrients and fuel are at. This further impedes the fishes ability to uptake oxygen which affects the other two items. All of this creates a negatively reinforced spiral.
Next up in my thinking on non-QT is biological. This is a two part approach. The first thought is that active predation of parasites that fall off of the fish in a biodiverse tank helps limit the amount to re-infect. The goal isn't elimination the goal is load reduction. Leaving the parasite present but under-performing, which segues nicely into the next part that I have taken from @Paul B. That is inoculation through constant low level infection. This ensures that when a new fish with a high parasitic load is introduced to the tank the fish that are currently in the tank are most likely immune and can easily deal with the infection. I am aware of things that don't have free swimming stages are unaffected but that is where I fall back on gas exchange.
Finally meds. Medication has consequences both to the fish and the biome that they are introduced into. I think we are all aware of the biome problems, there are thoughts on how to deal with that, but little regard is taken on the damage done to the fish. We don't yet seem to have a good way to try to mitigate the effects the meds on the fish. IME the meds hit the fishes digestive tract ... HARD. This is the worst because most fish have endured lengthy transit as @Jay Hemdal pointed out. They usually don't eat and are medicated the entire trip. This means their reserves are depleted and just when they need food the most they can't process it. I believe that it can be so bad that as soon as the fish eats it's system will shut down and it will die.
Fish eat anything, why are they so picky in our tanks. I have vomited in seawater and fish came from seemingly nowhere to chow down. My wife as feed fish cheerios to get them to come out. My dormate in the Philippines would feed his net collected fish Tetra freshwater flake. All of this, and more, for me point to something being wrong with the fishes food intake when they arrive at our aquariums. I believe more specifically their digestion.
These are the two core prongs of my view of a non-QTed system, gas exchange and biodiversity. Also why eschew meds. I am not against them I just believe that there are cons and they should be weighed against the pros before being used. Too many are either unaware or nonchalant about the cons, and I find this infuriating. Are there exceptions in all of this ... of course yes as in any approach. I am not per se against the sterility thinking and the QT that comes with it, but what I have found in my time and experience is that that thinking produces fragile systems that are prone to crash. Will all QT'ed systems crash, I don't know, but my experience tells me that this is the case.
FWIW
Jay Hemdal
10K Club member
Staff member
Forum Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
Fish Medic
Lots to work on there, but regarding gas exchange, I have a DO meter and just got an environmental CO2 meter last week, to look for “sick building syndrome”. I don’t see any gas exchange issues in our systems, but I do in some home aquariums.@Jay Hemdal I lub ya and I REALLY appreciate your insight, but I completely disagree with you here. Kamakazeee.
Everyone on this thread is going to be pro QT. I doubt there will be any dissent but me, and I will probably come to regret going against the orthodoxy once again. Here goes.
No QT means two things in people's minds. First I don't care and I just threw my fish in. This is what I will be smeared for. The second way which I actually practice is more thoughtful, but will be morphed into something I taken out of context, like a game of telephone.
This discussion is born of a base thinking. The two viewpoints on that thinking are maintain a sterile environment that only the things that I approve of enter or it's counter point is that the ocean is messy and I should look for biological competition and diversity. This is not to say that the two viewpoints don't have overlap in fact they do and that IMO is where the real discussion can take place.
Most people are aware of the sterile thinking, in fact at some level most have it. Even people that say they don't use QT. I used to have it so I get what is being said. I am not going to re-hash it here because I think it is well worn. Please do not say that I don't understand because I do, like I have said I have lived it and what I found over my 35 years of this is that it is less successful than a more natural approach.
I am going to speak to my approach because I don't want to put words or thoughts in the mouths or minds of other natural advocates, but I will say that many many many of the ideas that I use are rooted in the same thinking as those people.
First off no QT for me does not mean do nothing. That is entirely incorrect and I don't like being smeared with it. I have suggested many times to people having trouble to implement some of the ideas that I am using and they tell me that it is too hard and they aren't interested. Unfortunately they then go to a QT method to face a new set of challenges. THERE IS NO EASY WAY out of this!!!!!!!!
1. Gas exchange gas exchange gas exchange. This was the first thing that I observed to be key to no QT. I got this idea ultimately from my time in the Philippines. Here is what I saw on the "reef"
Guesses as to how many GPH this is? Mine is a lot, and I have gone with that. Over the years I have perfected how to get massive turn over without blowing everything around. You can see my build thread for what I have done if you are curious. My thought for the aquariums is huge surface agitation and surface skimming through overflows. This creates the best situation I have been able to come up with to ensure the air outside of the aquarium is in equilibrium. I would like to say use protein skimmers because their gas exchange is huge but they do other things that I don't like and that out weighs their awesome gas exchange.
Addendum to gas exchange is something that I have come to recently understand. It first came with the idea of ph being depressed from household CO2. I finally tested my household CO2 and I just about dropped dead with the amount of CO2 that is in the house. Once again you can see my build thread for the numbers and the solution. My conclusion was that if the household CO2 was high from the two humans in it, wouldn't it make sense that the O2 would be depressed? I went with this theory. I believe it is solid, and dovetails into my massive oxygen requirements.
Why I think elevated O2 is important for successful non-QT, or more importantly a successful aquarium. First off oxygen affects metabolism. Metabolism drives immune response. If you are being slowly suffocated it is hard for your body to fight infection, it is more concerned with basic function. I don't think most collectors distributors care about gas exchange because it adds capital costs that are hard to recoup. Second along the same lines, digestion is a huge consumer of resources in almost any creature. Lowered oxygen impedes digestive function at time that is most critical for the creature. Lastly most parasites are going to target the gills of fish. Because this is where the nutrients and fuel are at. This further impedes the fishes ability to uptake oxygen which affects the other two items. All of this creates a negatively reinforced spiral.
Next up in my thinking on non-QT is biological. This is a two part approach. The first thought is that active predation of parasites that fall off of the fish in a biodiverse tank helps limit the amount to re-infect. The goal isn't elimination the goal is load reduction. Leaving the parasite present but under-performing, which segues nicely into the next part that I have taken from @Paul B. That is inoculation through constant low level infection. This ensures that when a new fish with a high parasitic load is introduced to the tank the fish that are currently in the tank are most likely immune and can easily deal with the infection. I am aware of things that don't have free swimming stages are unaffected but that is where I fall back on gas exchange.
Finally meds. Medication has consequences both to the fish and the biome that they are introduced into. I think we are all aware of the biome problems, there are thoughts on how to deal with that, but little regard is taken on the damage done to the fish. We don't yet seem to have a good way to try to mitigate the effects the meds on the fish. IME the meds hit the fishes digestive tract ... HARD. This is the worst because most fish have endured lengthy transit as @Jay Hemdal pointed out. They usually don't eat and are medicated the entire trip. This means their reserves are depleted and just when they need food the most they can't process it. I believe that it can be so bad that as soon as the fish eats it's system will shut down and it will die.
Fish eat anything, why are they so picky in our tanks. I have vomited in seawater and fish came from seemingly nowhere to chow down. My wife as feed fish cheerios to get them to come out. My dormate in the Philippines would feed his net collected fish Tetra freshwater flake. All of this, and more, for me point to something being wrong with the fishes food intake when they arrive at our aquariums. I believe more specifically their digestion.
These are the two core prongs of my view of a non-QTed system, gas exchange and biodiversity. Also why eschew meds. I am not against them I just believe that there are cons and they should be weighed against the pros before being used. Too many are either unaware or nonchalant about the cons, and I find this infuriating. Are there exceptions in all of this ... of course yes as in any approach. I am not per se against the sterility thinking and the QT that comes with it, but what I have found in my time and experience is that that thinking produces fragile systems that are prone to crash. Will all QT'ed systems crash, I don't know, but my experience tells me that this is the case.
FWIW
Here is the thing though - when it comes to infectious protozoan and metazoan diseases, and the people posting their issues here, the vast majority had no quarantine, or had done it improperly. I haven’t lost a marine fish to protozoan or metazoan infection in the past six years that I’ve been using my current protocol. I’ve been advocating for proactive quarantine for 40+ years, but people still resist....
Jay
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
I don't understand why our views don't line up more. I suspect that it is because you are dealing with larger systems. You also have access to suppliers and equipment that most home aquarists don't. I also don't doubt your success rate, I am not questioning your method, it works clearly. I am just offering an alternate way.
I have debated on less nice terms with a person that ran a huge displays for stingrays. He enlightened me to the problems and solutions that big aquariums deal with. The idea that water changes can be pretty cumbersome is interesting to say the least.
It was a bit shocking to me that it is common in larger aquaria to have DO meters. Most home aquarists aren't will to pay for them and TBF, I would buy one but it is a test once kind of thing. Once you get a feel for what the DO is you only end up using the meter as a back up. Kinda expensive, so I don't have one.
The home CO2 thing is real. I just gave away my CO2 meter to a friend here on R2R and he was shocked at his readings too. By the same token I let my neighbor borrow it and his CO2 was awesome. It all depends on how the ventilation is set up in the home, and that varies dramatically. I always suggest that people check it, because without raw numbers you can't really know.
I do want to expand on the point of the fact that so many are not QT'ing. We both know that the fish have been in some sort of meds in their trip from ocean to home. You are going to be more knowledgeable as to how long that is, but my guess is almost the entire way. So it is not as if the fish haven't had or been exposed to meds along the way. I clearly understand that this isn't QT but there are meds in this equation even for me.
Imaexpat2
Active Member
There are so many factors that go into this question its hard to say. Here is what I do know...A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!!! I would rather a piece of live stock die in my QT tank and not risk wiping out everything in my display, than to "dump and pray"! Think about how much money you have invested in your Display tank...its a lot easier to keep the Nasties out of there from the get go than it is to try and fix it once established in a display tank!
I Dip/Treat everything and QT for about month! I have shot myself in the foot too many times in the past and have way too much invested in my tank not to mention my time and effort to be taking chances! Yes I am a certified QT **** in no uncertain terms...
I Dip/Treat everything and QT for about month! I have shot myself in the foot too many times in the past and have way too much invested in my tank not to mention my time and effort to be taking chances! Yes I am a certified QT **** in no uncertain terms...
