Question about lighting cost: Led and T5

[Crustaceon]

Its just so funny because all of the options work well. It is simply down to what the user prefers in terms of features. For me, I couldn't hang a light nor have a mini heater above the tank, so t5 and metal halides were not an option in any of the tanks I have had. But, that doesn't mean those lights are bad at growing coral. The only likely difference in just the light source itself (i.e. not mounting height, not spread, not shimmer, etc.) is that LEDs can be more efficient per dollar in terms of growing power due to the extreme customization of color (i.e. more blue = more the quicker one can hit photosaturation, despite what some claim about full spectrum being the best for coral growth rates). But guess what, they all grow coral just fine.

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See Comparative performance of light emitting plasma (LEP) and light emitting diode (LED) in ex situ aquaculture of scleractinian corals

Exactly. A lot of what goes into light preference is upkeep cost, power usage, desired features, setup and lighting aesthetics. I don't think any reef-targeted light is truly better at growing coral than another if set at the light's ideal height and ideal schedule for the coral, that includes fixtures with those tiny rectangular leds like the finnex ray 2 that literally grew acropora, the most light-intensive coral. Would you set those light up 16" above the display? No, of course not. But that doesn't mean they can't grow coral perfectly fine at 3" above the display.

 

[oreo54]

I like how people say leds last a long time…but only if you don’t run them at 100%. Why is that an option then?

I use T5 and I think the cost is even. LEDs last maybe 3-5 years, at that point bulb changes equal the cost of the fixture.

Remember Par does not equal par, it’s about spectrum. T5 is set and forget. LED requires knowledge and experience, higher end units make for easier go. I would use LEDs but too $$ for 1 year warranty and such. I use cheap horticulture t5 with ati bulbs. Cheap and great.

Debating trying good leds on my new 6x4 but so expensive to get proper coverage. ime using cheap LEDs doesn’t work, but there are great tanks with cheap LEDs , gotta know what you are doing. Using two 48” t5 fixtures cost 100$ up front but then 16x bulb changes every 18 months will be costly over time. But I don’t think it will ever equal the cost for LEDs

$320 every 18 months.
$640 32 months
$960 50 months......
+ $200
$1160
Don't believe $20/bulb is unreasonable.

16 x 54w = 864w
864 x .75 = 648 W led equiv. (arguable)

This is going to look like a sales pitch for sbreef.. It is not intended to be.
Just the "better" black box that one can run fuller than the usual BB.

The Awesome 32" sBox Reef LED Light for your Saltwater Aquarium

Not all black boxes are created equal! We will put our growth rates and coral color up against any saltwater or reef LED lights

sbreeflights.com

Sorry freshwater pattern. Just was a nice shot.

there are great tanks with cheap LEDs

$200 difference but a TON of cords (18 to be exact)..which is annoying.
Technically you have like 20% more watts than t5's.
Or 1620 equiv t5 watts (1w led to 1.5w t5)

Yea if you want all the bells and whistles then you can easily exceed $2000 with top tier lights.

8 30" AI Blades $1919....480 watts

 

[ReefGeezer]

My T5's have operating costs and use more power. That is just a fact. I have an 8X 54w ATI Programmable Sunpower Fixture. It is one of the best on the market. It would cost like $800 plus bulbs, so $1000 to get started. A state of the art LED Fixture would have no bulb replacement cost and use less power for the same photon count. Two Radion XR30 Pro fixtures will cover about the same footprint as my T5 Fixture and is one of the best on the market. They'll set you back about $2000 and are rated to last 5 years.

So if my initial expense was $1000 and 4 more sets of bulbs at $240 per set will be required to get me through 5 years. That's a total of $1960.00 over 5 years. So, considering the extra power consumption, it would cost a little more to run the T5s.... but not too much more.

My question is this: I am replacing my T5 bulbs before there is appreciable drop off in photon density at the spectrums I need. Does the LED fixture maintain the photon density of the desired spectrums over its entire 5 year life?

 

[piranhaman00]

My T5's have operating costs and use more power. That is just a fact. I have an 8X 54w ATI Programmable Sunpower Fixture. It is one of the best on the market. It would cost like $800 plus bulbs, so $1000 to get started. A state of the art LED Fixture would have no bulb replacement cost and use less power for the same photon count. Two Radion XR30 Pro fixtures will cover about the same footprint as my T5 Fixture and is one of the best on the market. They'll set you back about $2000 and are rated to last 5 years.

So if my initial expense was $1000 and 4 more sets of bulbs at $240 per set will be required to get me through 5 years. That's a total of $1960.00 over 5 years. So, considering the extra power consumption, it would cost a little more to run the T5s.... but not too much more.

My question is this: I am replacing my T5 bulbs before there is appreciable drop off in photon density at the spectrums I need. Does the LED fixture maintain the photon density of the desired spectrums over its entire 5 year life

Can’t be. But I would urge 2 radian would not have the same coverage. Also 5 years is a long time for one to last at all

 

[ReefGeezer]

Can’t be. But I would urge 2 radian would not have the same coverage. Also 5 years is a long time for one to last at all

Radions claim to effectively cover a 24" X 24" area. I know the PAR changes depending on the distance vertically from the fixture and how far the reading is taken horizontally from the fixture. However, functionally, I think two would adequately light most 4' tanks.

New ATI Programmable 8X 54 Watt T5 Fixture $800 to $850
8X ATI 54 Watt Bulbs (~$30 each) $240
4X 8 bulb replacement sets (4 X $240) $920
Total $2010

2X Ecotech Radion XR30 Pro ($949 each) $1898

I think the additional power consumption would add cost of the T5's. The coverage might not be exactly the same, but would be functionally the same unless you plan on keeping sensitive corals in the corners of the tank. I do not know how much degradation occurs over 5 years on Radion LED Fixtures, but I think they will last that long,. I've seen plenty of Radion XR series Gen 1 & Gen 2 fixtures still operating.

The cost difference per year is $22.50. For that, I'd pick the light I like better.

 

[piranhaman00]

Radions claim to effectively cover a 24" X 24" area. I know the PAR changes depending on the distance vertically from the fixture and how far the reading is taken horizontally from the fixture. However, functionally, I think two would adequately light most 4' tanks.

New ATI Programmable 8X 54 Watt T5 Fixture $800 to $850
8X ATI 54 Watt Bulbs (~$30 each) $240
4X 8 bulb replacement sets (4 X $240) $920
Total $2010

2X Ecotech Radion XR30 Pro ($949 each) $1898

I think the additional power consumption would add cost of the T5's. The coverage might not be exactly the same, but would be functionally the same unless you plan on keeping sensitive corals in the corners of the tank. I do not know how much degradation occurs over 5 years on Radion LED Fixtures, but I think they will last that long,. I've seen plenty of Radion XR series Gen 1 & Gen 2 fixtures still operating.

The cost difference per year is $22.50. For that, I'd pick the light I like better.

True. Just not sure you need the ati, I’m running horticulture 8 bulb t5 for 100$. Not sure how long ballasts will last though, probably not long, I think it’s safe to say it’s probably a wash

 

[ReefGeezer]

True. Just not sure you need the ati, I’m running horticulture 8 bulb t5 for 100$. Not sure how long ballasts will last though, probably not long, I think it’s safe to say it’s probably a wash

Good point. I was trying to compare costs for state of the art fixtures. I bought my Sunpower used ($500 w/ good bulbs), so my 5-year cost will be substantially lower.

 

[piranhaman00]

Good point. I was trying to compare costs for state of the art fixtures. I bought my Sunpower used ($500 w/ good bulbs), so my 5-year cost will be substantially lower.

I agree, I just personally think that you don’t need a good t5 fixture, it’s just the right bulb combinations, however LeDs typically want good fixtures to have good results, but I know people have great tanks with cheaper leds

 

[ReefGeezer]

I agree, I just personally think that you don’t need a good t5 fixture, it’s just the right bulb combinations, however LeDs typically want good fixtures to have good results, but I know people have great tanks with cheaper leds

I had an inexpensive set of LEDs. I thought they were good until a buddy came over with a PAR meter. That's when I found the Sunpower fixture for sale on R2R. No regrets.

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

I agree, I just personally think that you don’t need a good t5 fixture, it’s just the right bulb combinations, however LeDs typically want good fixtures to have good results, but I know people have great tanks with cheaper leds

with t5 and halides, its all about the reflectors

 

[nereefpat]

with t5 and halides, its all about the reflectors

Right. The individual parabolic aluminum reflectors of the Sunpowers and also the old Sunlight Company Tek fixtures makes a difference.

 

[piranhaman00]

agreed.

my issue is that I am running 2x 8 bulb fixtures, 16x25$ =400$ a year!
After the first year I am going to reasses

 

[nereefpat]

agreed.

my issue is that I am running 2x 8 bulb fixtures, 16x25$ =400$ a year!
After the first year I am going to reasses

Whoa. How many square foot are you lighting?

 

[oreo54]

My question is this: I am replacing my T5 bulbs before there is appreciable drop off in photon density at the spectrums I need. Does the LED fixture maintain the photon density of the desired spectrums over its entire 5 year life?

For fun a little err napkin science on diode output over time and temp. from CREE.
Sadly it depends how well the light is made and how they are driven.
Honestly leds are pretty cheap in comparison to the electronics/aluminum/marketing/packaging. Using more and running them cooler is really preferable.

Then there is your own tolerances..
90% light falloff is practically nothing really.
How different is 250 par to 225?
Heck if you buy enough photons to be able to run at 50% the diodes and hopefully most of the electronics (Meanwell does have 7 year warranties on their power supplies (100,000hrs)) could easily last 7 plus years.
Current philosophy for leds is to rate them at 80% as the "death" percent.

Anyways just a visual to ponder.
BTW royal blues are the most stable chips (AFAICT) and the "overheat" thing is being worked on as we speak..

Not sure what data set people are getting this 3-5yr stuff from.
Also one more thing, these constant current driven by DC voltage lights are not your crummy house leds..
Now there is a scam..

Oh I believe his tank is 72x48"

 

[Spare time]

Brace yourselves for the “UVB” crowd that will likely enter soon.

Followed by a link to a video with some random guys with no training or education on the matter just giving an opinion

 

[Bpb]

Followed by a link to a video with some random guys with no training or education on the matter just giving an opinion

“bUt hOoManS usE vItAmiN D, aNd tHaT coMes frOm UVB!”

Yeah but do cnidarians produce and use vitamin d from UVB? (No)

“Uhhhhhhh, weLL iTs tHeRE! nAtuRE caNt bE wROng!”

 

[hrdneglcry]

Thanks for the information. I am content with T5's. I have a maxspect and a nicrew one my other tank and I like how it looks. the lfs guy said that cost operating difference is not much. But my bill has been a little high and I have been trying to save some cash. The Leds do have a different ripple effect. I do not run then on high. Its a fish only tank. I do have some gsp but even not on high I have more than enough light. I like my T5 Odyssea. The leds make the coralline show more purple. I just want to save on electricity.

 

[trevorhiller]

I'm looking at two options for a 60" x 30" x 20" Tank along the lines of this thread topic. I love my Radions, but I'm trying to look objectively at my options while considering upfront & recurring costs (monetary and energy).

Option 1: Radion XR30 x 3 (I'd probably add some strip lighting too, but I'll leave that out to give the advantage to the LED argument)
Fixture Price: $2850
Bulb Cost: $0 / year
Life Expectancy: 5 Year Service Life
Energy Consumption: 815 Watts
5 Year Energy Cost @ 12 Hours/Day @ 100% Intensity @ $0.15/kWh: $2020
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 100%: $4870
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 79%: $4445 (I run my current Radions around 85% intensity, so this is probably more realistic anyhow.)

Option 2: ATI SunPower 60" 8x80 Watt Fixture
Fixture Price: $792
Bulb Cost: ~$200 / year
Life Expectancy: 5 Year Service Life
Energy Consumption: 640 Watts @ 100%
5 Year Energy Cost @ 12 Hours/Day 100% Intensity @ $0.15/kWh): $2100
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 100%: $3892
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 79%: Not Adjustable

This also assumes both fixtures last 5 years, but I think that's a fair expectation. The T5 will likely last longer, I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect more from the LED fixture, but perhaps. The math scews in it's favor if they do, but $550 difference buys another 2+ years worth of T5 bulbs. Now we need the LEDs to last >7 years to break even.

The energy argument doesn't stand as strongly as the advertising suggests. If you save money on energy, you pay it in fixture cost. The argument was better when people thought that a single LED puck light would cover the whole tank, but it seems people are learning that just isn't the optimal case and add on more and more fixtures until the whole top of the tank is one sheet of lighting fixtures.

I'm thinking trying to replicate T5 lighting with LEDs just isn't cost efficient at the time for my use case.

 

[Hats_]

I'm looking at two options for a 60" x 30" x 20" Tank along the lines of this thread topic. I love my Radions, but I'm trying to look objectively at my options while considering upfront & recurring costs (monetary and energy).

Option 1: Radion XR30 x 3 (I'd probably add some strip lighting too, but I'll leave that out to give the advantage to the LED argument)
Fixture Price: $2850
Bulb Cost: $0 / year
Life Expectancy: 5 Year Service Life
Energy Consumption: 815 Watts
5 Year Energy Cost @ 12 Hours/Day @ 100% Intensity @ $0.15/kWh: $2020
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 100%: $4870
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 79%: $4445 (I run my current Radions around 85% intensity, so this is probably more realistic anyhow.)

Option 2: ATI SunPower 60" 8x80 Watt Fixture
Fixture Price: $792
Bulb Cost: ~$200 / year
Life Expectancy: 5 Year Service Life
Energy Consumption: 640 Watts @ 100%
5 Year Energy Cost @ 12 Hours/Day 100% Intensity @ $0.15/kWh): $2100
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 100%: $3892
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 79%: Not Adjustable

This also assumes both fixtures last 5 years, but I think that's a fair expectation. The T5 will likely last longer, I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect more from the LED fixture, but perhaps. The math scews in it's favor if they do, but $550 difference buys another 2+ years worth of T5 bulbs. Now we need the LEDs to last >7 years to break even.

The energy argument doesn't stand as strongly as the advertising suggests. If you save money on energy, you pay it in fixture cost. The argument was better when people thought that a single LED puck light would cover the whole tank, but it seems people are learning that just isn't the optimal case and add on more and more fixtures until the whole top of the tank is one sheet of lighting fixtures.

I'm thinking trying to replicate T5 lighting with LEDs just isn't cost efficient at the time for my use case.

Wow, over here in the netherlands we pay around €0,60 per kWh... with that cost the led is much cheaper than the t5 over a 5 year period. so the price you pay per kWh matters too. just running costs for those 2 fixtures over here:
t5 (@100% 12h per day for 5 years): €10 709,10
LED (@100% 12h per day for 5 years): €8 409,60
and this is excluding the bulb changes

 

[piranhaman00]

I'm looking at two options for a 60" x 30" x 20" Tank along the lines of this thread topic. I love my Radions, but I'm trying to look objectively at my options while considering upfront & recurring costs (monetary and energy).

Option 1: Radion XR30 x 3 (I'd probably add some strip lighting too, but I'll leave that out to give the advantage to the LED argument)
Fixture Price: $2850
Bulb Cost: $0 / year
Life Expectancy: 5 Year Service Life
Energy Consumption: 815 Watts
5 Year Energy Cost @ 12 Hours/Day @ 100% Intensity @ $0.15/kWh: $2020
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 100%: $4870
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 79%: $4445 (I run my current Radions around 85% intensity, so this is probably more realistic anyhow.)

Option 2: ATI SunPower 60" 8x80 Watt Fixture
Fixture Price: $792
Bulb Cost: ~$200 / year
Life Expectancy: 5 Year Service Life
Energy Consumption: 640 Watts @ 100%
5 Year Energy Cost @ 12 Hours/Day 100% Intensity @ $0.15/kWh): $2100
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 100%: $3892
Total 5 Year Lighting Cost @ 79%: Not Adjustable

This also assumes both fixtures last 5 years, but I think that's a fair expectation. The T5 will likely last longer, I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect more from the LED fixture, but perhaps. The math scews in it's favor if they do, but $550 difference buys another 2+ years worth of T5 bulbs. Now we need the LEDs to last >7 years to break even.

The energy argument doesn't stand as strongly as the advertising suggests. If you save money on energy, you pay it in fixture cost. The argument was better when people thought that a single LED puck light would cover the whole tank, but it seems people are learning that just isn't the optimal case and add on more and more fixtures until the whole top of the tank is one sheet of lighting fixtures.

I'm thinking trying to replicate T5 lighting with LEDs just isn't cost efficient at the time for my use case.

Bingo, energy costs are not a great point to go to LED, you end up using the same amount of power to get good coverage.

Another point, I use two 48” 8 bulb fixtures. You don’t need the sun power to run the T5s, I’m using some horticulture fixture that cost 90$ each. Passive cooling and no acrylic shield which is arguably better for t5 bulbs. Brings down your cost even more. Last 5 years? Lower chance but at the cost can replace once or even twice.