Ranco failed, Johnson Controls failed, what next?

sbidny · Apr 9, 2018

So, I've been trying to "do things right" by using a secondary heater controller for my tank's Eheim Jager heater. Didn't want to cheap out, given the fact that a faulty heater can easily crash a tank. So, I did my research and found out that folks generally recommend a Ranco controller.

Used the Ranco successfully for a couple of years before it started throwing an error code. I can't recall if it was throwing an E1 or E2 code. But the more I researched it, the more I found folks with similar issues, requiring a whole new controller. This didn't exactly inspire confidence, so I started looking again.

Came across Johnson Controls, which also had a large following. Picked up one of these units. Again, used it for a couple of years.

Then the other day, my wife and I smelled something funny coming from the tank. It smelled like an electrical component burning up. I quickly figured out that it was the Johnson Controls unit and unplugged it. The unit was hot and smelled horrible. I'm certainly glad we were home at the time.

So, now I'm stuck. I'm not sure what to try next. I could go with an Inkbird, but that seems like a step back, not forward, in terms of quality and safety. Anyone have any thoughts? Recommendations?

Thanks!
-Steve

sbidny · Apr 9, 2018

BTW, this will also be attached to a Reef Angel controller. My new build will be using Finnex heaters without a controller of their own, so I want to have the Reef Angel controlling the heaters and another heater controller as a backup.

jda · Apr 9, 2018

It is OK if they fail. It is not OK if they fail "on."

I have had Rancos run for decades without issue. Ranco is as good as it gets, IMO, but they are not bulletproof. I have never heard of one failing "on."

You can see if you can find an old Medusa Controller. I have used these for decades as well. You can calibrate a Medusa. They are hard to find, though... but I always grab one when I see one for sale.

Rst · Apr 9, 2018

sbidny said:
BTW, this will also be attached to a Reef Angel controller. My new build will be using Finnex heaters without a controller of their own, so I want to have the Reef Angel controlling the heaters and another heater controller as a backup.

I have been successfully using a dual Johnson Controller for both my heaters and my water chiller without issue for over 25 years. Sorry to hear it didn’t work for you.

chipmunkofdoom2 · Apr 9, 2018

You mention both of these units lasted for a couple years. How long is a couple years? While it would be nice if these things lasted for 10+ years, they're modern commodity electronics, most likely built to a budget. I wouldn't be thrilled if I had to replace one every 3 years, but I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if that ended up being reality.

madweazl · Apr 9, 2018

sbidny said:
BTW, this will also be attached to a Reef Angel controller. My new build will be using Finnex heaters without a controller of their own, so I want to have the Reef Angel controlling the heaters and another heater controller as a backup.

If you have a Reef Angel, why are you looking for another controller? Another "layer" is also another piece of equipment that can fail.

sbidny · Apr 9, 2018

madweazl said:
If you have a Reef Angel, why are you looking for another controller? Another "layer" is also another piece of equipment that can fail.

Not exactly in this situation. See, the Finnex heater has no controller of its own. That means, it's on by default. If the Reef Angel had an issue causing the outlet to be stuck on, it would fry my tank.

In this case, you put another controller inline with the Reef Angel and set a couple of degrees higher than the Reef Angel. If the Reef Angel fails, this controller would prevent the heater from cooking everything.

You can also set an alarm on the Reef Angel to alert you if you ever reach this temperature, indicating a failure in controlling the heater.

I would never run a heater with only a single controller.

jda · Apr 9, 2018

For me, I still have the Ranco that I got with my first chiller in 1992. Still working. Both the Johnson and Ranco are industrial application tools, not reef quality. While failures happen, they are much more reliable than a reef-grade probe.

It is OK if they fail. This is better than one sticking on. Reef can survive at 68 or 70 degrees and recover... death at 85 or 86 for most. You need a second controller in case the temp probe in the reef angel goes bad, or the unit just freezes the outlet "on." Two thermostats is a MUST, IMO, which is why I still use Jagers which have one of their own.

sbidny · Apr 9, 2018

jda said:
It is OK if they fail. It is not OK if they fail "on."

I have had Rancos run for decades without issue. Ranco is as good as it gets, IMO, but they are not bulletproof. I have never heard of one failing "on."

You can see if you can find an old Medusa Controller. I have used these for decades as well. You can calibrate a Medusa. They are hard to find, though... but I always grab one when I see one for sale.

I see what you're saying, but it's problematic. If the Reef Angel is doing the majority of the controlling, the backup controller is never being exercised. I need something reliable enough to assume it's going to work when I need it most, i.e., when the Reef Angel fails.

I may just need to come up with another way to validate the backup controller is still working. Actually, this does have me thinking. I'm very much in favor of ensuring equipment is working when you need it to work.

The Reef Angel allows me to code some fairly interesting scenarios. I could have it "allow" the backup controller to kick in, let's say, once a week. The Reef Angel would then monitor the temperature to ensure it never goes above a couple of degrees higher than the backup is set. If this happens, I could then send an alarm and reengage the Reef Angel controller ASAP.

sbidny · Apr 9, 2018

chipmunkofdoom2 said:
You mention both of these units lasted for a couple years. How long is a couple years? While it would be nice if these things lasted for 10+ years, they're modern commodity electronics, most likely built to a budget. I wouldn't be thrilled if I had to replace one every 3 years, but I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if that ended up being reality.

Yeah, you're right. I wish I had those dates in front of me. Trying to find them, but I doubt I'll get anything too accurate for the Ranco.

The Johnson Controls was more recent, so I may be able to pull that up. It was definitely less than three years, unfortunately. And its failure case was more concerning, since it could have caused a fire.

reefwiser · Apr 9, 2018

The Faults of E1 and E2 can come about after being in the harsh environment of a Reef tank sump. Especially due to the salt water getting into the circuit board inside the unit. I would do what Ranco suggest's and replace the unit. It fails off which it should. I have used this type of control for years in my life as an industrial maintenance man and trust that it will work as it is designed to do. And if an issue occurs it will fail safely and not cause a fire or operate a heater or chiller out of its settings.

sbidny · Apr 9, 2018

jda said:
For me, I still have the Ranco that I got with my first chiller in 1992. Still working. Both the Johnson and Ranco are industrial application tools, not reef quality. While failures happen, they are much more reliable than a reef-grade probe.

It is OK if they fail. This is better than one sticking on. Reef can survive at 68 or 70 degrees and recover... death at 85 or 86 for most. You need a second controller in case the temp probe in the reef angel goes bad, or the unit just freezes the outlet "on." Two thermostats is a MUST, IMO, which is why I still use Jagers which have one of their own.

"Two thermostats is a MUST, IMO" - Couldn't agree more!

"...which is why I still use Jagers which have one of their own" - The temperature controllers in all of the Jagers I've owned have gone bad in pretty short order. Being exposed to that much salt and water is just too much to ask of them.

sbidny · Apr 9, 2018

reefwiser said:
The Faults of E1 and E2 can come about after being in the harsh environment of a Reef tank sump. Especially due to the salt water getting into the circuit board inside the unit. I would do what Ranco suggest's and replace the unit. It fails off which it should. I have used this type of control for years in my life as an industrial maintenance man and trust that it will work as it is designed to do. And if an issue occurs it will fail safely and not cause a fire or operate a heater or chiller out of its settings.

Yeah, I may have to bite the bullet and try the Ranco again. The design of my new build allows me largely to isolate electronics from the sump/water/creep/humidity. Hopefully this would add some years to their lifespan.

madweazl · Apr 9, 2018

sbidny said:
Not exactly in this situation. See, the Finnex heater has no controller of its own. That means, it's on by default. If the Reef Angel had an issue causing the outlet to be stuck on, it would fry my tank.

In this case, you put another controller inline with the Reef Angel and set a couple of degrees higher than the Reef Angel. If the Reef Angel fails, this controller would prevent the heater from cooking everything.

You can also set an alarm on the Reef Angel to alert you if you ever reach this temperature, indicating a failure in controlling the heater.

I would never run a heater with only a single controller.

I would agree in most cases but not when it is down stream from a relay that is constantly power cycling the additional controller.

sbidny · Apr 9, 2018

madweazl said:
I would agree in most cases but not when it is down stream from a relay that is constantly power cycling the additional controller.

Yeah, it's likely that I'll end up setting the Reef Angel higher and allow the heater control to do the work. I'm working out the details, but that's quite probable. In this case, the Reef Angel would be the backup.

sbidny · Apr 9, 2018

sbidny said:
Yeah, it's likely that I'll end up setting the Reef Angel higher and allow the heater control to do the work. I'm working out the details, but that's quite probable. In this case, the Reef Angel would be the backup.

Bah, the problem with this is that the logic I want to write for my Reef Angel to check weekly that the backup is working won't work in this arrangement. I would just have to assume the Reef Angel is working as a backup.

What are other folks' thoughts on power cycling a Ranco/Johnson each time a heater needs to kicks on? Bad idea?

Likely seems so, but I know there are plenty of people who put a heater control in between a reef controller and the heater and let the reef controller control the temperature.

reefwiser · Apr 9, 2018

It's just a failsafe issue and one I would expect and want in a control unit. I have tons of control systems I work with every day. An I hate when they fail on instead of off. Causes me way to much work.

mcarroll · Apr 9, 2018

I like the Marineland and Eheim glass heaters even as stand-alone....(all-Marineland at home)

I currently (6+ years I think?) run them through my Reefkeeper Lite as the main temperature sensor....I like that too.

Flippers4pups · Apr 9, 2018

@sbidny, could you elaborate on how your controller and the ranco/JC's were wired in line with your heaters?

Reef angel, heaters, ranco?
Reef angel, ranco, heaters?
Heaters, reef angel, ranco? ......

You get the idea. Thanks

sbidny · Apr 9, 2018

Flippers4pups said:
@sbidny, could you elaborate on how your controller and the ranco/JC's were wired in line with your heaters?

Reef angel, heaters, ranco?
Reef angel, ranco, heaters?
Heaters, reef angel, ranco? ......

You get the idea. Thanks

Sure thing. When these issues occurred, the order was:

Reef Keeper Lite -> Ranco/Johnson control -> 2x 250W Eheim Jager heaters

With the RKL set a few degrees higher than the Ranco/Johnson, so the Ranco/Johnson was doing the controlling.

For my new build, the plan is:

Reef Angel -> Heater control -> 500W Finnex heater