Randy’s carbon dosing experience question

[Miami Reef]

Hello Dr. Holmes-Farely

You consistently dosed vinegar for a long time period. I’m pretty sure your nitrates were always undetectable, right?

If that’s true, will dosing organic carbon start lowering ammonia and other forms of N if nitrates are too low?

 

[Doctorgori]

Hello Dr. Holmes-Farely

You consistently dosed vinegar for a long time period. I’m pretty sure your nitrates were always undetectable, right?

If that’s true, will dosing organic carbon start lowering ammonia and other forms of N if nitrates are too low?

it’s VERY Refreshing to see someone of your experience actually ask questions … shows not all reefers of your experience level live on mount Olympus … following

Added: @Miami Reef …are you suggesting the addition of a carbon source will circumvent the normal cycling process then? ….just now wondering what if someone doses carbon during a standard tank cycle from the beginning

 

[Garf]

Hello Dr. Holmes-Farely

You consistently dosed vinegar for a long time period. I’m pretty sure your nitrates were always undetectable, right?

If that’s true, will dosing organic carbon start lowering ammonia and other forms of N if nitrates are too low?

From my recent experience, all forms of N.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hello Dr. Holmes-Farely

You consistently dosed vinegar for a long time period. I’m pretty sure your nitrates were always undetectable, right?

If that’s true, will dosing organic carbon start lowering ammonia and other forms of N if nitrates are too low?

No, they were not undetectable. I rarely measured them, but 10 ppm was more typical.

At very high doses I was thinking I might see a decline in caulerpa racemosa, but if anything it grew faster. Maybe it used acetate directly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’m not sure why my nutrients never bottomed out that I noticed, but the fact that I let detritus collect as a deep mud in my sump may have played a role. I expected them to go lower.

 

[Doctorgori]

From my recent experience, all forms of N.

@Garf how do you know this? did you add vinegar to a tank with a known nitrite or ammonia value? (like early on in a cycle)

heck I got all sorts of questions now

@Miami Reef (begging your pardon as it’s your thread)

@Randy Holmes-Farley could you then adjust your carbon dosing to actually zero in on specific nitrate level? or is there anyway to fine tune it like that?
(wondering if other tools are available for those who have to dose nitrate in high demand tanks)

basically wondering if there is a place for carbon dosing in the early stages of cycling?

@Miami Reef again great question and please begging your pardon

 

[Miami Reef]

I strive to keep the nitrate levels in my aquaria below 1 ppm, and preferably undetectable with current hobby kits (less than about 0.5 ppm). If the ability of the kits to measure lower nitrate levels is enhanced, then I might move my target levels down.

Aquarium Chemistry: Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium

This article provides background on nitrate in the ocean and in aquaria, and describes a number of techniques that aquarists have successfully used to keep nitrate levels down to more natural levels in reef aquaria.

reefs.com

Before going further, I should point out that my reef tank is fairly low in other nutrients. It has no nitrate detectable with LaMotte or Salifert kits, implying a concentration less than 8 mM (0.5 ppm). Inorganic phosphate detectable with the Hach kit was 0.3 mM (0.03 ppm). These figures are at the low end of values typically reported for reef tanks, but may be in excess of those present in surface ocean water.

Silica In Reef Aquariums

Why would I recommend dosing silica? Largely because creatures in our tanks use it, the concentrations in our tanks (at least in mine) are below natural levels, and the sponges, mollusks, and diatoms may not be getting enough to thrive.

reefs.com

@Randy Holmes-Farley Are you sure your nitrates were 10ppm with carbon dosing? Perhaps there articles were much older. I just wanted to clarify. I’m not calling you out; I would never do that.

 

[Garf]

Aquarium Chemistry: Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium

This article provides background on nitrate in the ocean and in aquaria, and describes a number of techniques that aquarists have successfully used to keep nitrate levels down to more natural levels in reef aquaria.

reefs.com

Silica In Reef Aquariums

Why would I recommend dosing silica? Largely because creatures in our tanks use it, the concentrations in our tanks (at least in mine) are below natural levels, and the sponges, mollusks, and diatoms may not be getting enough to thrive.

reefs.com

@Randy Holmes-Farley Are you sure your nitrates were 10ppm with carbon dosing? Perhaps there articles were much older. I just wanted to clarify. I’m not calling you out; I would never do that.

Yeah 20 years ago natural levels were best, sais so in Eric Bourmans “Aquarium Corals” also. Things have changed since then, I had hair for example.

 

[Doctorgori]

Yeah 20 years ago natural levels were best, sais so in Eric Bourmans “Aquarium Corals” also. Things have changed since then, I had hair for example.

I’m torn: I had the same question as the OP but should I start a new thread?
…. semi rude to jump in on another’s thread with new questions but I’ve actually read some of those articles as well as watching many of Lou’s TM vids on their line of Carbon Dosing products…. Didn’t want to saturate the site with identical/similar threads but I might have to … the information overload is having me confused and conflicted

 

[Garf]

the information overload is having me confused and conflicted

Reefin’ in a nutshell.

 

[Miami Reef]

semi rude to jump in on another’s thread with new questions but I’ve actually read some of those articles as well as watching many of Lou’s TM vids on their line of Carbon Dosing products…. Didn’t want to saturate the site with identical/similar threads but I might have to … the information overload is having me confused and conflicted

Not rude at all! Jump right in! Or make a new thread. Whatever makes you feel best.

I personally love when people ask their questions in my threads.

 

[Garf]

Hello Dr. Holmes-Farely

You consistently dosed vinegar for a long time period. I’m pretty sure your nitrates were always undetectable, right?

If that’s true, will dosing organic carbon start lowering ammonia and other forms of N if nitrates are too low?

Did you see my ramble about my organic dosing in a non organic dosing quarantine cycle?

 

[Miami Reef]

Did you see my ramble about my organic dosing in a non organic dosing quarantine cycle?

I haven‘t. I’d like to see it.

 

[Doctorgori]

Not rude at all! Jump right in! Or make a new thread. Whatever makes you feel best.

I personally love when people ask their questions in my threads.

I don’t worry too much about online reputation but nobody wants to be rude barging in, or look stupid asking dumb questions,…
but I also have wondered what nitrogen products exactly are targeted by carbon dosing… I just never had the nerve to bring it up for fear it was a dumb question..
Related to that…

- why can’t you just dose carbon from day 1 and what effect will it have on a normal cycle sequence?
- what effect does the tanks “biome of diversity” have on carbon dosing?
…..related to that
- has the current situation changed/evolved due to live rock type ? (Marshal Island vs dead/Marco, et)
- is the proliferation of bacterial products in the market be related to the shift in rock availability? (basically is the proliferation of sterile/dead rock creating a market for “microbacter 7”)
Related to that…

- Can you fine tune carbon dosing? and if so to which parameter P or N ? or both
- Why can’t removing corals or adding more food (or both) be practiced in lieu of buying Nitrate or Phosphate additives/products?

I actually have more, but thats the beginning..

 

[Garf]

I haven‘t. I’d like to see it.

Your wish is my command;

Fritzyme 9 modified cycle

Thought I’d go “live bacteria” route for cycling a QT as the wife is itching to get a few fish in her tank. The most available bacteria by me was Fritzyme 9, so that’s what I went with. Tank, ceramic rock, heater, Circulation pump were all bleached for 24 hrs then allowed to dry for 24 hrs...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Dan_P]

- why can’t you just dose carbon from day 1 and what effect will it have on a normal cycle sequence?
-

Curious about this idea of carbon dosing on day 1. Would the system be sterile with only nitrifying bacteria added?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Randy Holmes-Farley could you then adjust your carbon dosing to actually zero in on specific nitrate level? or is there anyway to fine tune it like that?
(wondering if other tools are available for those who have to dose nitrate in high demand tanks)

I do not know. Reducing or controlling nitrate was not my main purpose in carbon dosing so i never tested it. In theory it sounds likely, but I did not demonstrate it.

FWIW, I think that nitrifying bacteria are just one way to cycle and run a reef tank, and I'm not convinced they play much of a role in a final heavily stocked reef aquarium. I'd argue they may even be detrimental.

I think it's time to revisit what a good bacteria really is. Nitrifiers may be bad, forcing corals to work harder to get N.

I think I might start a provocative thread on this. lol

 

[Garf]

I do not know. Reducing or controlling nitrate was not my main purpose in carbon dosing so i never tested it. In theory it sounds likely, but I did not demonstrate it.

FWIW, I think that nitrifying bacteria are just one way to cycle and run a reef tank, and I'm not convinced they play much of a role in a final heavily stocked reef aquarium. I'd argue they may even be detrimental.

I think it's time to revisit what a good bacteria really is. Nitrifiers may be bad, forcing corals to work harder to get N.

I think I might start a provocative thread on this. lol

I think folks assume the bacteria are helping us with our tanks, when they are actually helping themselves, taking advantage of our over generous nature.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Here's the promised provocative thread. Feel free to weigh in there:

Writing Prompt: Nitrifying bacteria are undesirable in a reef tank

OK, so the world of reefing is loaded with folks talking about nitrifying bacteria as good bacteria, and some other bacteria are bad. I think it's a perfectly valid hypothesis that cannot be easily dismissed that nitrifying bacteria are bad for a fully stocked reef aquarium. Here's the step by...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Dan_P]

FWIW, I think that nitrifying bacteria are just one way to cycle and run a reef tank, and I'm not convinced they play much of a role in a final heavily stocked reef aquarium. I'd argue they may even be detrimental.

I think it's time to revisit what a good bacteria really is. Nitrifiers may be bad, forcing corals to work harder to get N.

I think I might start a provocative thread on this. lol

Micro algae are being totally left out in this discussion, me thinks.

I would guess nitrifying bacteria are at the back of the line when it comes to when a species ”sees” ammonia if it is coming from fish.

By all means start that provocative thread. We will likely obtain some testable ideas.