Randy I could kiss ya!!

[Saintnovakai]

I was extremely hesitant to try that there caustic soda alkalinity supplement but brother I've been on that thing two days already and everything Monti has pushed out new rims and others have "literally bonded themselves to rock they've been sitting on for months over night. I don't know if that makes sense to others here but I swear to God. I've heard people say Montis grow fast and the bump I have admittedly grows faster than other things but it's still just a bump but NOW!? I'm gonna go buy garden scissors a new stool for the front of my tank and I'm gonna watch stuff grow.

You sir a literally a Scholar and a Gentleman. I believe there should be some reefing hall of fame and you sir and @Dana Riddle are my first nominees.

 

[Flippers4pups]

That's great news! Which one did you go with, sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate?

 

[Saintnovakai]

That's great news! Which one did you go with, sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate?

Sodium Hydroxide/ Lye/ Caustic Soda/ The "Soup Maker" (Blacklist reference) [emoji23]

 

[Flippers4pups]

Oh, yes I'm aware of it. I've never used it, wouldn't know how to dose it. How did you calculate dosing it?

Did it raise your PH and alkalinity a bunch?

Heard it can increase your SG over time.

 

[Saintnovakai]

Oh, yes I'm aware of it. I've never used it, wouldn't know how to dose it. How did you calculate dosing it?

Did it raise your PH and alkalinity a bunch?

Heard it can increase your SG over time.

The mix ratio that he gives you basically replaces the BRS Soda Ash mix. Also, all Alk mixes increase SG over time. The Sodium in the name literally means Salt. You get to use much less, you can increase its potency to mimic supplements like ESV etc and it has the PH effect of Kalkwasser but dispenses as a normal two part.

I normally dose Alk 6 times a day but to maintain a steady PH I break up the dose to every two hours or so. ( My house is usually very locked up during the day and when I and the wife get home it's carbon dioxide city in the living room. Opening the window doesn't do much for my tank because the design of the room is that wind/air passes beside the house, not so much in. It can be windy by the window but the room feels dead static.

 

[Reefahholic]

That’s awesome man!

 

[Saintnovakai]

That’s awesome man!

Thanks man. Had a small side effect that really isn't a big deal but let's put it out there anyway.

When I switched over from Soda Ash to Randy's NaOH recipe I noticed a change within two days. I didn't adjust the doser as the recipe is 1:1 ratio Ash:NaOH. What I did notice though is that my Alk started to climb up.

The NaOH is the first time I've actually measured the ingredients out by weight. I've always just done the 2 1/4 cups of Baking Soda heated for one hour to get Soda Ash.

This mixture was, I expect, more accurate than my original Part 1 DIY Alkalinity and it ended up being more potent.

I've stopped dosing for a few days for my Alk to drop back down from in the 10s Tobin the 8s. My Alk is usually 8.7 or there about at 5:00 p.m. I also plan to cut my dose down a few ml just to mitigate climb.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

FYI - If you use a pure sodium hydroxide solution for the alkalinity part of 2-part (you can also mix it with sodium carbonate/bicarbonate to adjust the pH effect), keep in mind that, as Randy warns, the pH of the solution is extremely high. In addition to potentially causing burns if you get it on your skin and don't wash it off immediately, sodium hydroxide solutions are incompatible with certain plastics, and you'd need to determine what your dosing container is made of if you want to be sure the lye solution won't degrade it.

Just as an example, poly methyl methacrylate (i.e., true acrylic) is resistant to concentrated sodium hydroxide solutions. Polycarbonate (e.g., "lexan"), which looks very similar, is not resistant.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Interesting info.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT YOU PURCHASED, HOW YOU MIXED IT AND ACCORDING TO WHAT GALLON WATER VOLUME AND HOW OFTEN?

 

[Saintnovakai]

FYI - If you use a pure sodium hydroxide solution for the alkalinity part of 2-part (you can also mix it with sodium carbonate/bicarbonate to adjust the pH effect), keep in mind that, as Randy warns, the pH of the solution is extremely high. In addition to potentially causing burns if you get it on your skin and don't wash it off immediately, sodium hydroxide solutions are incompatible with certain plastics, and you'd need to determine what your dosing container is made of if you want to be sure the lye solution won't degrade it.

Just as an example, poly methyl methacrylate (i.e., true acrylic) is resistant to concentrated sodium hydroxide solutions. Polycarbonate (e.g., "lexan"), which looks very similar, is not resistant.

I use the pure sodium hydroxide. Randy and Jim Welsh have an article right here that covers the process. I would not want to interpret it for you. I, or if someone does before me, will link the article. I do not use the blend of NaOH with SB. I didn't see that version.

Also, Dkeller is right. You need to read the article and all its precautions. That slime you feel if it gets on your skin is it turning you into soap. Lol. I use a glass container to store it but there are many plastics immune to the high pH. Also check your dosing lines. Mine hasn't given me issues...so far. Lol

Also, do not use if you have normal pH! That would be risky. There are three recipes. Normal, a bump in pH and a Super pH booster (NaOH). (Well that's what I call it).

Went and got the article: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/second-new-diy-two-part-recipe-with-higher-ph-boost.357080/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Oh, yes I'm aware of it. I've never used it, wouldn't know how to dose it. How did you calculate dosing it?

Did it raise your PH and alkalinity a bunch?

Heard it can increase your SG over time.

The salinity effect is exactly the same as sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate per unit of alk added.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I was extremely hesitant to try that there caustic soda alkalinity supplement but brother I've been on that thing two days already and everything Monti has pushed out new rims and others have "literally bonded themselves to rock they've been sitting on for months over night. I don't know if that makes sense to others here but I swear to God. I've heard people say Montis grow fast and the bump I have admittedly grows faster than other things but it's still just a bump but NOW!? I'm gonna go buy garden scissors a new stool for the front of my tank and I'm gonna watch stuff grow.

You sir a literally a Scholar and a Gentleman. I believe there should be some reefing hall of fame and you sir and @Dana Riddle are my first nominees.

lol

I'm glad you liked it.

 

[Saintnovakai]

lol

I'm glad you liked it.

Hey Randy, am I right in surmising that the reason my Alk went up with NaOH was because my initial mixture of Soda Ash measured with a cup was off?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hey Randy, am I right in surmising that the reason my Alk went up with NaOH was because my initial mixture of Soda Ash measured with a cup was off?

I don't know. It may have been partly sodium bicarbonate, which is weaker per volume and weight.

 

[Saintnovakai]

I don't know. It may have been partly sodium bicarbonate, which is weaker per volume and weight.

Oooooohh kaaaayy. So it seems it didnt off gas all the CO2 which is why I got such a weak mix. Literally thought I was using 11ml but have had to start dosing at 7ml to watch. Tank is lightly stocked. Mainly a few Montis and a few euphyllia. I think those danged Veemetid snails use half my 2 part.

And that's why I'm a linguist and not a chemist. Thanks Randy.

 

[Saintnovakai]

Update guys. The strength of the previous All mix (SB) wasn't wrong. I noticed something with my jebao doser. If I break the doses up into 1ml doses, each dose, although properly calibrated, comes out as 2ml. It was literally doubling the dose. It doesn't have this margin of error as much when the doses are larger. Not sure how much larger yet.

That's the reason my Alk jumped up much higher when I started. It's because, due to trying to keep the pH steady I broke my much larger/ less frequent doses into smaller/more frequent amounts. This is when All spiked. So instead of my dosing 14mls, I was actually dosing 28.

I just set a 1ml dose and had it drain into a graduated syringe. Got 2ml.

So now I dose Alk at 7 on the pump and the larger doses of Calcium at 14. It's late so tomorrow I'll check Calcium accuracy, dosing 14ml broken into four doses.

Solution me thinks is to calibrate Jebao Alk pump to 50ml instead of 100ml. That should get me to the 1ml dispensation accurately.

Ideas?

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Well, one thing to consider is how a peristaltic pump (i.e., most dosing pumps) operates. They work by occluding a volume in the tubing between two points where the rollers squeeze the tubing shut, and the calibrated dose is based on the user feeding back the information of the measured volume to the pump, which then computes the amount of rotation that delivered that amount. Doses different than the calibration point are done by simple division - if 4 complete rotations delivered 100 mL, then 1 complete rotation delivers 25 mL, and so forth.

The issue is with small volumes - there's a certain amount between those two roller points, and if the computed amount of rotation is quite small such as 1/3rd of a rotation, then you may get the amount between two roller points, plus some fraction of the next two roller points. That fraction won't be accurate, since it's not completely pinched off. This is partly why you see as many as eight rollers on scientific peristaltic pumps designed to deliver small volumes, since the resolution inaccuracy is considerably lower the smaller the tubing and the more rollers there are.

However, working with the equipment that you have, the question would be whether you can change the dosing to deliver a higher volume fewer times per day. I suppose opinions vary on this, but IMO there's really no difference between delivering 24 1mL doses versus 12 2mL doses, or even 6 4mL doses. The evidence I have for that is anecdotal, but I use the Neptune D.O.S. on two tanks, and another two tanks get hand-dosed, once per day. I don't see much difference in the tank's ability to support SPS corals, it's just that the D.O.S. is more convenient.

 

[Saintnovakai]

Well, one thing to consider is how a peristaltic pump (i.e., most dosing pumps) operates. They work by occluding a volume in the tubing between two points where the rollers squeeze the tubing shut, and the calibrated dose is based on the user feeding back the information of the measured volume to the pump, which then computes the amount of rotation that delivered that amount. Doses different than the calibration point are done by simple division - if 4 complete rotations delivered 100 mL, then 1 complete rotation delivers 25 mL, and so forth.

The issue is with small volumes - there's a certain amount between those two roller points, and if the computed amount of rotation is quite small such as 1/3rd of a rotation, then you may get the amount between two roller points, plus some fraction of the next two roller points. That fraction won't be accurate, since it's not completely pinched off. This is partly why you see as many as eight rollers on scientific peristaltic pumps designed to deliver small volumes, since the resolution inaccuracy is considerably lower the smaller the tubing and the more rollers there are.

However, working with the equipment that you have, the question would be whether you can change the dosing to deliver a higher volume fewer times per day. I suppose opinions vary on this, but IMO there's really no difference between delivering 24 1mL doses versus 12 2mL doses, or even 6 4mL doses. The evidence I have for that is anecdotal, but I use the Neptune D.O.S. on two tanks, and another two tanks get hand-dosed, once per day. I don't see much difference in the tank's ability to support SPS corals, it's just that the D.O.S. is more convenient.

Thanks for the primer on peristaltic pumps Dkeller. My aim in delivering smaller amounts is to keep alk and pH as stable and predictable as possible. Isn't there benefit to this? Also, can I just calibrate to 50ml to get the 1ml instead of the squeezed out 2 ml?

 

[KrisReef]

If your pump is consistent at 2 mls when you only want to dose one it should be simple to dilute your stock solution in half to achieve your supplemental dose.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Thanks for the primer on peristaltic pumps Dkeller. My aim in delivering smaller amounts is to keep alk and pH as stable and predictable as possible. Isn't there benefit to this? Also, can I just calibrate to 50ml to get the 1ml instead of the squeezed out 2 ml?

Stability is a good thing in an SPS tank, of course. What I'm getting at, though, is that there's a point at which more frequent additions doesn't make much difference. One could, for example, use a positive displacement piston pump to dose additives on a continuous basis. But that's not necessary, and the pump would be expensive and loud.

As Kris notes, there's no reason why you can't dilute your stock solutions if you choose; the only limitation to how far you could go with that is that you stay under your evaporation rate.